Dragon late Tiger with Zimmerit 6383

Post by **mannloon** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:27 am

So i went a bit Tiger crazy this year as you can see here from my stash. I started building the Academy early with interior as a long term build last month, and for this SiG will be building the late Dragon with Zim kit 6383. I want to make it one of the famous 101st Villers Bocage Tigers, so i may be getting decals, although i could just turn the 221 in to 212 and i may just do that. For tracks i will be using either modelkasten or afv club workable as i have both. Other than that it's out of the box for me.

I hope i can put the time in for this, i have recently become very busy with work and life, but the Tiger is my favorite, and Coen is the man, so she'll get done.

Post by **Art17847** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:57 pm

Wow now thats a nice collection of tigers

....good luck with ur build will be lookin forward to see how she goes together....have fun

Post by **jbellos1** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:17 pm

Glad to see someone else with the affliction! I will be interested to see your 6383 build - I hear it's a great kit!

Post by **psydeviant** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:42 pm

i have that dragon kit , its the only dragon tiger 1 kit i have, i flipped a coin to decide if i was going to build this one or the afv late version, i drew the afv one so i will be watching this with a keen eye, its got all the best bits and zimm it will be a corker

Post by **Coen** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:06 am

Very cool choice of kits. This should be an interesting build for sure. I'm curious to know what you think of either of those AM track sets.
I've used both so your opinion will be interesting.
And yes... you did go a little tiger crazy... but you make that sound like a bad thing?

Post by **mannloon** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:01 am

Coen wrote:Very cool choice of kits. This should be an interesting build for sure. I'm curious to know what you think of either of those AM track sets.
I've used both so your opinion will be interesting.
And yes... you did go a little tiger crazy... but you make that sound like a bad thing?

Mike i think the tracks I use will depend on time. If it seems like i have plenty i'll go modelkasten, but if i get crunched AFV Club all the way.

Post by **MarkVerploeg** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:09 pm

Yes you did go crazy
Damn ,even Coen didn't show this many tigers in his "stash" vid on youtube
But i think you are going for a nice kit
I have one build and one in the stash too and it is a great kit and saves the efford of making or buying a zimmerit set
Good luck with the build

Post by **Coen** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:51 pm

It has expanded a tad since then, but not by much.

Post by **mannloon** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:47 pm

Man that's a beautiful thing. Plus we both ordered the Wittmann S04 kit.

Post by **Coen** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:48 am

Haha... true.. haha. Another tiger... I fail to see the problem

Post by **MarkVerploeg** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:10 am

Yeah sure no problem
Just make sure you don't build more then the Germans did
It would look inaccurate

Post by **mannloon** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:55 am

MarkVerploeg wrote:Yeah sure no problem
Just make sure you don't build more then the Germans did
It would look inaccurate

Right?

Post by **MarkVerploeg** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:49 am

He can still make about 1400 of them
I'm not sure what the grand total of tigers was was but he already has some
And you gotta build what you like

Post by **mannloon** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:29 pm

MarkVerploeg wrote:He can still make about 1400 of them
I'm not sure what the grand total of tigers was was but he already has some
And you gotta build what you like

I think with me and the Tiger I it's sort of a hottest girl at the party situation. I started this hobby wanting to build every type of German and Allied armor. Then it started to narrow to my favorite vehicles and wanting to build all the variants. And then it devolved into modeling Tigers. I just couldn't ignore how obviously iconic that tank is.

I swear I have a bunch of Panthers and other stuff in my stash, honest.

Post by **MarkVerploeg** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:53 pm

I know the feeling
I wanted to build each "real" German tank when i started with armor
All the Panzerkampfwagens from 1 to 6
Then i found out they made the king tiger and i just can't have enough kt's with a Porche turret
Strange though that i have 2 porches and 4 henschels
Ooh and my panzer in still not finished after 4 years

**Felis Barcinonensis YouTube Channel** · Post by **felisbarcinonensis** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:51 pm

Impressive Tiger hoard! Would it be too adventurous to infer that you love Tigers? Nah!!

Looking forward to your build!!

Post by **Coen** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:56 pm

You make that almost sound bad Felis

Post by **mannloon** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:39 pm

So here we go, I was out by 8pm and up early. Took some kit shots and ready to start.

I won't give a proper history of the Tiger as a lot of people did in the Dangerous Cats SiG with the Panther. What I will give is a personal history of the Tiger. As you hear from a lot of German tanker interviews my first experience with the Tiger was not one of awe or reverence. I thought the wheels looked silly and simple, and the overall shape was less than elegant. I would see it in books or in old footage on documentaries and think it was a clunky monster compared to the elegance of the Panther. A lot of that is actually true, as the Germans adopted more sloped armor Panther-esque elements in to the King Tiger and other vehicles from 1943 forward.

When I first was buying armor kits in 2010 I ended up with the old 70's tooling of the Panther A and Tiger from Tamiya. As the Panther was my first kit that I actually built it helped to solidify my love for the Panther. I didn't start building the other 6 or so kits until last year at this time. It wasn't until I started to build that old 70's Tamiya Tiger that I started to fall in love with the tank itself. It didn't take long, I think the once the turret was together that I started to give in to the sickness. As I started to look up reference I noticed all that was wrong with that kit and it really bugged me, and at the same time the fact that a Tiger was physically sitting there was very alluring to me.

Up until that time I hadn't been collecting a stash, I was still trying to just build one of each Panzer type. So when I got in to modeling in a big way, I ordered a Panzer III and IV, which I hadn't had any of yet, and then my next purchase was to replace that awful Tiger I. I went with the Tamiya 35216 after much research and watching people like Hamilkar Barkas building Dragon and Tamiya Tigers on youtube. That model, which I have in my signature below was finally accurate enough and I think I did a tolerable job on it. So now there was a proper looking Tiger on my shelf. But the obsession didn't end there, and I wanted a late. So flash forward half a year or so and I have bought 10 Tigers since last year at this time.

Most are for different variants like initial, DAK initial, post initial, early, mid, late and so on. And then of course there are variants on those I would like to build like the 503 turret bin, transport mode, prototypes and the list could go on a while.

Through all of this time, including my Tiger 131 thread no one has been of more help to me than Coen. Might I just say thanks for all of the putting up with n00b questions Mike, you a gracious guy and we all appreciate it. It has been a massive help and inspiration to have such a proper Tiger nut on the forum and on youtube. Perhaps he's partially to blame for my sickness, I don't really know.

Point is, it's been a very eye opening year building models for me. The main focus of that year was Tigers, and I owe a lot of my knowledge to Coen, so I want to make this one as good as I can.

The kit

The card (so it's an older boxing, my son has this kit and it's missing the card)

Anyone that's built Dragon Tiger kits before, I'd like to know what the deal is on this. It's ejector pin marks that are flashy by the look of it. Like, half of a peg of flash coming off each one. Or is that supposed to be there?

4 of these

2 of these, sorry it's super blurry

Now for the tracks. I haven't decided which of these to use yet. It is all going to come down to how much time I have.

First Modelkasten SK-1, which has the ability to have workable wheels as well as tracks. I've thought about leaving the suspension workable and trying to make the whole thing workable, although I may want to glue the swing arms in place, it depends on how they act under the weight of the built up kit. I'd love some opinions on this from guys that have built this suspension before.

Or the type I used on my early Tiger, the AFV Club workable.

So that was probably more thorough than I needed to be, but that's how I am. I don't think I'm going to have tons of time for updates on this one as I did on the Jagdpanther. Work starts again on Monday and I work a lot. So, I will probably only do major updates on this one.

Post by **mannloon** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:58 pm

So I have been hauling on this one. As I've said I go back to work Monday and I want to get as much construction done by then as I can. Never built a Dragon Tiger before, and what a nice surprise to have them go together so easily compared to the Panzer IV series I had dealt with a few months ago.

Torsion bars/swing arms in place, zimmerit side panels and rear plate on. Fan and wheels are just dry fitted.

Keeping things movable, didn't make the idler and sprocket workable like Mike, honestly didn't think about until I saw his video. If I did that thought then I'd have to alter the road wheels to make them workable, so I think I'll do that on a later build.

Turret details are just beautiful. It sucks a bit because I'm building the Academy with interior now as well, and the Dragon breach and seats for the turret are MILES above any of the Academy stuff. It's a little depressing, taking the mojo out of the Academy build.

A lot of this is dry fitting but man it comes together quickly. What a beauty of a kit.

And to the side of that sits my non-SiG Academy build. Just thought I'd show how Tigery my bench is.

Also, what the hell is this thing for? I assumed it would be part of the fan/radiator assembly but I can't find mention of it where I'm at in the instructions.

Post by **Art17847** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:31 pm

Looks like ur off to a good start.....really enjoyed ur intro story.....good luck with ur build

Post by **Coen** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:57 pm

Those ejector pin stems on the glacis can be cut off, they're not supposed to be there.

mannloon wrote:

This is the splinter shield that goes over the radiator/fuel cell under the grills of the engine deck, they were installed mid/late war to help prevent artillery shrapnel from peircing the fuel cell or the radiator.

The fuel cells are the shiny squares above the fans, that piece covers those.

Post by **mannloon** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:43 pm

So are they optional? I don't see them on in your pic.

Post by **Coen** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:38 am

From April of 1944 until the end of the production run, all tigers had wooden decking installed over the fuel cells to catch shell splinters and bullet splash.
So all but a few very early steel wheeled Tigers would have these installed, as the steel wheels went into production on the tiger I in February of 44. Since only 95 tigers were built in February of 44 there's a good chance that yours had the splinter shields installed.

Here's what they look like when in place.

Post by **mannloon** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:55 am

Coen wrote:From April of 1944 until the end of the production run, all tigers had wooden decking installed over the fuel cells to catch shell splinters and bullet splash.
So all but a few very early steel wheeled Tigers would have these installed, as the steel wheels went into production on the tiger I in February of 44. Since only 95 tigers were built in February of 44 there's a good chance that yours had the splinter shields installed.

Here's what they look like when in place.

Thanks Coen. I knew that's where they went but they're not mentioned.

Post by **OliveDrab** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:58 am

Looking great, and very inspiring! I'm thinking of putting the current projects on hold, and joining the fun here. Besides, I have no built Tigers in the collection YET!

Post by **PaulAyrey** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:06 am

Great start Adam, look forward to seeing more!

Post by **mannloon** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:30 pm

Thanks guys, hope I can keep it going even though I am back from winter break as of today. I did finally find a place online to order the late Techmod Tiger decals which has 205 and 007 on it. Those are the two late Tigers I really wanted to build with the kits I had. So this one shall be 205.

Post by **Coen** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:48 am

I've used those decals before and they're excellent. It was a while ago, but I had a good experience with them.
Good choice Adam

Post by **mannloon** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:27 am

Hey guys. I've been chipping away little bits of this build whenever I can get the time. As predicted work has been the primary force in my life, but little bits of progress have been made.

All of the lower hull is together with the fans and such painted. I've decided to go for minimal etch (the grills mostly) and possibly the styrene cables just to speed up the build. I'm 80% through building one run of the tracks, and I must admit these late AFV Club tracks aren't going together or articulating as smoothly as the early ones did.

So not the most progress, nor the best pictures. But I'm still here. And I'm following a lot of these builds, what a great time to be a member of this forum.

I feel like I could get the build close to done if I could steal just one whole day to build, but it never happens.

Post by **Coen** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:41 am

It may be slow, but there's still a lot of time left. So no panicking.

it looks close to being done, just the fiddly bits and those tracks left.
It looks great so far.

Post by **alextheblue** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:26 am

Looking good there manloon and those tracks are going to be worth the effort once there done - great work!

Post by **Hillbilly** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:48 pm

Good luck with those tracks.I bought a set for my build,messed with them for a bit and put them right back in the box

Post by **mannloon** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:07 pm

Hillbilly wrote:Good luck with those tracks.I bought a set for my build,messed with them for a bit and put them right back in the box

I can understand where you're coming from. The late tracks are slightly different and have more bits that seem to need cleaning up than the early. Which type did you have?

Here are a few pics of the early version finished on my 131 Tiger. I think they are worth the effort. When they work.

Post by **Hillbilly** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:22 pm

mannloon wrote: I can understand where you're coming from. The late tracks are slightly different and have more bits that seem to need cleaning up than the early. Which type did you have?

The set I have are the early type.The guide horn pieces are pretty flashy and of course every link has several ejector pin marks to clean-up.

Post by **mannloon** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:30 pm

Hillbilly wrote:
mannloon wrote: I can understand where you're coming from. The late tracks are slightly different and have more bits that seem to need cleaning up than the early. Which type did you have?
The set I have are the early type.The guide horn pieces are pretty flashy and of course every link has several ejector pin marks to clean-up.

The early seemed more brittle and flashy and the late seem not to fit together as well causing kinks in the articulation. I still think they're good as the lightening holes are correct and the sag is convincing. However for $10-ish more you can get Friuls. So we will see what i buy in the future.

Post by **mannloon** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:07 pm

Got a good deal of work done last night. Starting to drink caffeine has really helped push the build along. No joke.

Did the styrene cable clamps, which were pretty annoying as I hadn't done them before. All tools are on. tracks need one or two links added per side and the shrouds are being left off until paint.

I do need to get something to cut the side fenders into the separate sections and then I plan to bend them up. Then it looks like paint! finally. I always seem to hit low points on Dragon builds, and I'm over the hump now.

Post by **Donkeywalloper** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:59 pm

ML, what a great build.
Well more advanced than my effort.
What with sickness and work, another month passed and I look at your build and feel my confidence fading.
Great job mate and really outstanding tracks.
All the best,
John

Post by **mannloon** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:01 pm

Donkeywalloper wrote:ML, what a great build.
Well more advanced than my effort.
What with sickness and work, another month passed and I look at your build and feel my confidence fading.
Great job mate and really outstanding tracks.
All the best,
John

Thanks John, those tracks aren't as good up close as they may seem in pictures. Also, my confidence fades every time I look at every thread on here, but I keep going. I love this hobby.

So an update. Trying to get into base color paint by the end of today as I have to work at Madison Comic-Con for work all weekend and will get no modeling done.

The overall piece, half primed two nights ago. Accidentally forgot to glue on the spare antenna tube, so I'll be either gluing or CAing that on and repriming that area when I go to do another coat. The paint went on awfully thin, so I'll have to go over what I did and finish the wheels and tracks.

This is the best fit I can get with the idler still adjustable and 95 links per run which is what was suggested by AFV Club. I'm thinking I'll take one link out and go with 94. 95 may be correct or possible but it looks rather odd to me. Thoughts?

Also noticed one of the tow cable clamps (which were a pain) is missing. I went back and checked pics I took before priming and it had already fallen off so I'm thinking it's time to learn how to have things that aren't perfect. Checked all 7 other Dragon Tigers and no spares of that part (c16). Oh well.

Also worth mentioning is I've changed up again which Tiger this will be as far as markings. I wish I'd have known that before I cut out the Zimmerit pieces. By the way the 1st SS square piece is on the wrong side of the front glacis in this kit to model 205, So be very careful when using the molded on Zim Dragon Tigers. Not sure about 007 as no one has seen the front of the thing. Depending on which company of the abteilung they either did or didn't cut out squares for the markings, and it wasn't always on the same side.

Here is a pic (the best I know of) of Wittmann in 205. Firstly, yes the numbers look either blue, yellow or white. As someone who works with color professionally I'll tell you that as color in real life is composed of hue, value and saturation, and hue is not recorded in black and white photos, there is no way to know what color these number were. There isn't and there never will be. However certain colors tend to be in the lighter end of the value spectrum.

*SIDEBAR*
For instance, this is a sloppy example, but take this color image of a rainbow, when duplicated and desaturated, the fully saturated red, yellow and orange become the exact same value. I'm just using this as an example. Rule of thumb, and they figured this out in the B&W TV days, is that red doesn't read well in gray scale. So if you see numbers on a tank that look dark dark gray, that's probably red. The natural value of red is very dark. So chances are 205 has blue or white numbers. But on top of all that I prefer the look of red numbers, so I might not care.

Anyway, Tiger 205 used the smaller muzzle break as you can see, and had the 1st SS insignia on the opposite side of the glacis than I have my cutout, so I'll make that tank later out of either 6406 or 6253. (the other being 007). So that leaves me with 212 as the tank I'll model this as. I think... I'm very partial to the 101st LSSAH Tigers, so I'll probably just stick with 212 as it's thought to be the Villers Bocage Tiger.

This is a knocked out Tiger in Villers Bocage, and it does seem to have both insignia that I made cutouts for in the proper places. So 212 seems a good bet, unless anyone else knows this to be a different Tiger. But this is an example of the different placement of divisional markings between companies in the same abteilung. Although I just noticed this tank also has the KT muzzle break....can't win.

Post by **Donkeywalloper** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:49 pm

Were all seeking perfection....and I'm not sure its available in the wonderful world of Tigger.
Your doing a superb job mate, really superb.
Track-Wise, I like the hang and look you have at present, but hey that's not coming from a professional, just a half ass amateur.
It freaks me out how much you chaps know about this and that, but the collective of this forum, and the passion of friends is wonderful. It calms my mind and allows the fun of building bits and bobs of plastic into a replica of this most famous vehicle.
I to love this hobby

Great job,
John

Post by **Coen** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:29 pm

I do believe... though no one is 100% positive, but that's tiger 113 of the LAH.
I have a handy book on Viller's Bocage that has some really awesome shots in it of several of the tanks that were KOed at VB.

Here's a few more of the one you've mentioned.

Post by **mannloon** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:55 pm

Coen wrote:I do believe... though no one is 100% positive, but that's tiger 113 of the LAH.
I have a handy book on Viller's Bocage that has some really awesome shots in it of several of the tanks that were KOed at VB.

Here's a few more of the one you've mentioned.

Thanks for those pictures Mike, you must have all of the good books. I honestly didn't think it was 212 itself (couldn't be that lucky) but I was hoping it was the same company. If it's 113, that means 1st company right? Alas I think I just have to pick some numbers I like and have decals for (212, 221, 205) and pick a Tiger that matches enough. It's annoying because I made the cutouts in the glacis and so wanted a Tiger that had them in that place. But if I do 212 with the markings a bit off so be it.

Post by **Coen** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:05 am

There aren't many photos that are proven to be of tiger 212, but these two are the best bets at the moment.

Just for the record... no one has any idea what tank Michael Wittmann rode into Viller's Bocage on June 13. There were 5 tigers there that day and there's no definitive evidence that says for sure what tanks were there, only what commanders were there.
They swapped tanks all the time depending on experience, need and availability, so Wittmann could have been is any number of tanks that day.

These are "mostly" to be tiger 212 before and after June 13, 1944.

Post by **mannloon** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:23 pm

I've seen the top one. And dammit there is that 1st SS insignia on the left of the glacis. I'll have to think this one over. Still not sure what I want to do for markings. Thanks Mike.

Post by **mannloon** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:24 am

Put some thought to this today before i left for work. I really wanted a famous Wittmann Tiger but i think i need to go with a first company tank that is confirmed in villers bocage. Tiger 112 was there and i have two variants of the decals. Leaning towards that.

Post by **mannloon** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:44 am

Base coat going on tonight, about to do another session. My cheapy airbrush was spraying terribly and giving me some serious hand cramping. I haven't airbrushed in a long time. It can really cramp up the hand man. So Tamiya dunkelgelb continues to please me with it's overall tone and hue. I am wondering what type of late tritonal camo to do, as I'm to that phase. There are colored lines, and full on patches, I don't really have a preference...I will have to look at lots of reference after the base coat is finished.

As she stands.

And about half of the wheels are painted. had to stop and eat dinner/rest my hand and compressor, that thing gets really hot.

Post by **PaulAyrey** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:12 am

Looking lovely Adam. Really looking forward to seeing more of this one.

Post by **Coen** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:46 am

Looks good bud. The texture looks uber flat. But it's nice and uniform.
Should be an great base for the rest of the camo, whatever you decide to do.

I remember my tankless compressor used to get pretty hot when I was spraying for a while. Hot enough that you couldn't touch it.
My newer one does too but only when I'm priming something with that badger primer (high pressure, big needle, lots of air, lots of compressor time).
Though it's better than the ones without the tank.
As for the sore hand... practice makes perfect haha.

Post by **mannloon** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:30 pm

Coen wrote:The texture looks uber flat. But it's nice and uniform.

Do you think it's too flat Mike? I think I worry about coverage so much that I lose the foggy look which creates the shading. I'm thinking I may have the courage to go in and panel fade/shade with some different tones as this isn't a vehicle based on an exact piece, I want to go over the top with weathering even if I make a mistake or two.

Finished the base as it was, glued the wheels on (forgetting that I needed to paint raw steel on them, oh well)

Post by **mannloon** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:54 am

Camo on. Not terribly happy with it, but considering it looks better than I thought it would. I have to go back over with some dunkelgelb cleanup, and I did do some fading on the raised surfaces before the camo, don't know that you can tell though.

What I used as a guide

After I clean up the paint I am going to wait for my order of Solvaset before I do decals, and work on the tracks. I'll get there.

Post by **rwsmith14** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:11 am

Camo came out Great !!