colour turret numbers DAK tigers 141 and 142

[RichardT]

Hi,

can anyone confirm the colour of the turret numbers for DAK Tigers 141 and 142 at Hunt's Gap. I don't think they were
red but white outline with no fill? The tanks themselves RAL 8020 Afrika Braun with no other camouflage pattern ?

Any help here will be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Richard

[Coen]

I wish that I could tag people ... That would be a handy thing.
Either way, Adam Mann "mannloon" or David Bryden would be able to answer your question bud.
You give their ears a bend.

[OliveDrab]

Richard,
You may have seen this discussion already, but in any case its still fascinating!
http://tiif.de/thread.php?threadid=494& ... ad2de632eb

There may never be a true definative answer, but these guys give some really good possibilities with their research.

[mannloon]

Olivedrab is right, you should read that thread. That being said I am a college art teacher, and I teach among other things color theory. One of the things we talk about in that class is that you cannot infer color from black and white tones. It's just not possible. So read through that tiif thread, and go with your best guess. Reds do read more like black in B&W photography. And what I've learned is to go with David Byrden's opinions as they are incredibly well researched and educated.

So if in that thread he says that since the Panzer III photographed by Life magazine had black numbers, we can assume the the Tigers may have as well it's a sensible argument. But they're referring to 7 and 8 company 501, which if memory serves were reconstituted from other tanks later in Africa.

But if what you're asking is Tiger 142, I think the common although it can't be confirmed with evidence opinion is that those tanks had red turret numbers. Some people adamantly disagree with this though, and the opinion that the stencil may have consisted of painting the white, then painting the fill with the base color over white would create a slightly lighter fill color is probably the most sensible argument. I don't think I'd like the look of it though, so if I did that I'd be more likely to go with no fill color and just outlined numbers as in scale it would look nearly the same.



That looks a little light in tone to be red, but it's certainly not dark green or black as the tone is light. You certainly won't get any flak for going with red. I think I would too. I think what I've seen as common practice is either no fill or red fill on those 1st company Tigers. If you want to test your own opinions, take some images of other people's work from the internet with different numeral colors and use Photoshop or something similar to desaturate the image and see if the tones match your reference. It's possible that the white stroke of the numerals creates the illusion of a darker tone inside of it as that's a common trick played by the human eye. However in the above photo you can see what is known as a specular difference in the inside of the numeral suggesting there is more or different paint there. The original airbrushed base coat has different roughness qualities.

Try not to let this occupy too much of your time. Keep in mind that colors have 3 qualities. Hue, Saturation and Value. The only thing we can get from old B&W photography is the value. You can sit and compare reference images until you're blue in the face, but without original color reference images you're just guessing.

Also, not sure if you've seen these, but they're recently unearthed pictures from Hunt's Gap thought to be Tiger 142. This would be the same scene from the famous color Life magazine pictures.

[RichardT]

Guys,

thanks for your help. Wow the knowledge you gents possess.Ive read the thread and with Adam's insight I will make some changes to my original paint plan. I was going to go for all over RAL 8020 with white outlined turret numbers and a very heavily weathered vehicle. I have already laid down two coats of 8020 as a base colour but have just ordered model masters 8000 and will lightly dust the vehicle with this colour leaving patches of the 8020.After reading Adams colour explanation which by the way is amazing I will go with red turret numbers. I am building both 141 and 142 - 141 is a tamiya/dragon/TMD slash job and
142 is the Rye Field kit with the TMD modifications. Looking forward to building my first RF kit - also got the 503rd - that might take a while.

PS - Adam - there was nothing wrong with your after build report on the RF DAK - you pointed out the pro's and cons and i believe your assessment was fair.

I have a big issue with Dragon at the moment - bought kit 6252 what i thought to be the initial with all the goodies paid £50 - you can convert into your local currency - no goodies ds tracks - just the same box - what a con Dragon - what a shame.

Cheers,
Richard

[wookiee76]

Only one very minor bone to pick Adam, some of us are old enough to remember watching snooker on a black and white tv and being able to tell which ball was which! However given my lack of colour sense and your levels of knowledge in both art and german armour i would go with your assertions. Also regarding the rye field tiger i thought your review was fair and complete, never saw the point in reviews that dont point out any shortcomings which is why i dont trust paid reviewers, as an aside i did a few rc reviews for a magazine many moons ago and was told in no uncertain terms not to slate the car, i didnt, what i did instead was word it so that the first letter of each paragraph spelled out " this rc is bloomin awful".

[mannloon]

Only one very minor bone to pick Adam, some of us are old enough to remember watching snooker on a black and white tv and being able to tell which ball was which! However given my lack of colour sense and your levels of knowledge in both art and german armour i would go with your assertions. Also regarding the rye field tiger i thought your review was fair and complete, never saw the point in reviews that dont point out any shortcomings which is why i dont trust paid reviewers, as an aside i did a few rc reviews for a magazine many moons ago and was told in no uncertain terms not to slate the car, i didnt, what i did instead was word it so that the first letter of each paragraph spelled out " this rc is bloomin awful".

they used to use special colored balls to represent colors during the black and white era. There are some fascinating stories of costumes such as Superman's that had to be custom created for B&W as the tones in his actual colored suit wouldn't read against each other.



Also, thanks very much to both of you, I thought I had been fair as well. In the end I don't like when manufacturers send me their stuff as sometimes they want to link my reviews to their official pages and when I finally do the review it's not something they want their customers to hear. I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing but I've distanced myself from sponsored reviews as it's too much hassle. For instance right now I'm building the 503 with interior Tiger I for Armorama, and they don't mind if I'm brutally honest.

[wookiee76]

Cool, learn something new every day!

[RichardT]

Adam,

please let us know how the 503rd build goes - i've bought the same kit - it looks fantastic - for the money the price is excellent
since modelkasten tracks and full verlinden interior alone would cost more than this kit.

In a couple of weeks time i'm starting to build their DAK but also using the interior from the 503rd -so well see if the fit is good.

cheers,
Richard

[ForTheWatch]

i assume this turret number logic will apply to Tiger 131 and 121 from 1st company? not to be confused with later model Bovington 131!

personally I am also inclined to lean on the red numbers theory. i dont have decals for 131 or 121 w red, but might fill in red on my own using white outlined tamiya decals.

[DByrden]

Hi,

can anyone confirm the colour of the turret numbers for DAK Tigers 141 and 142 at Hunt's Gap. I don't think they were
red but white outline with no fill? The tanks themselves RAL 8020 Afrika Braun with no other camouflage pattern ?

Any help here will be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Richard

As far as I can tell, the tanks were painted 7008/8000, that is, the first Tropical scheme. The Tiger factory was still using it although the second scheme had been announced. In fact they were still using the old paint when they completed Bovington's Tiger weeks later.

The battalion themselves had the new paint colours to hand, and when they added new items to their Tigers (e.g. Feifels) they would sometimes paint them 8020.

The turret numbers for the 1st company were just white outlines.

Tiger 142 seems unusual in that the numbers were painted over RAL 8000 but then green RAL 7008 was painted around them.

Davi