Afrika Tiger Colours?

[burnie43]

Hi
I wasn't going to ask this as I'm sure it;s been flogged to death but.....
my head is mince trying to find the right answer so I will ask.....
I was just away to start building the Tamiya Afrika Korps Tiger 1 Initiall Production kit 35227 and I thought that I'd just have a look at the colours used for this...... MAN .... there seems to be a big debate on actual colours for these vehicles...
My head is now officially minced!
Any advice would be appreciated
Thanks
M

[modelfan1]

maybe humbrol 93? it is what I would use.

[OliveDrab]

As you noted, there is no "correct color", as in wartime, almost anything is possible due to material shortages, captured paint supplies, crew exhaustion...etc, etc.
However, it has been suggested in some sources that the Tigers deployed to Africa were initially painted RAL 8020 Desert Brown. It is also suggested that many of the African Tigers were at some point painted RAL 7008 Olive Green. I just recently completed my own African Tiger, and went with the Desert Brown. I used a mix of Tamiya Buff and Desert Yellow, about four parts Buff to one part Desert Yellow, and was rather happy with the result.

(I have the same African Tiger kit you mentioned. For this one, I want to go with RAL 7008 Olive Green...when I get to it someday )

[Coen]

No one actually knows what the real colours looked like Burnie. So any of the manufacturers that produce the appropriate DAK colours for the 502nd would be appropriate.
None and all of the current colours on the market are correct as know one knows the exact colours.
You're right about the arguments, they've been going one for ages. But the truth is no one is right.

[mannloon]

I have read extensive debates on this over at Network54. I also have this kit, and when I build it I plan to shoot for the color in the LIFE magazine pics taken in North Africa at the time. There are at least a few where the knocked out tanks aren't too damaged to get a good idea of what the color is. At least for me.

This is the one that when I see a DAK Tiger done in this color it feels right. It's not dunkelgelb, To my eye it's a bit more gelbraun(ish). Look in the lower left where the jack is. I can't tell if the darker color is just dirt or the brownish/green camo color Like on Tiger 131. On the pics of the side I think I see a greenish camo spot.


This one is very good reference.


This one is more of the same, different angle.


This one seems to be dunkelgelb.


I felt like I found the holy grail the first time I saw these pictures. Original color photos taken in Tunisia by LIFE magazine 1943

A few more of Tiger bits and less easy to discern images of knocked out Panzer IV's.






This one is pretty toasted


This one is dirty, but not burnt out by the look of it.

[burnie43]

Guys
You have answered my question superbly, just as I thought, the beauty of armour modelling is that the colours change when mother nature and battle conditions get a grip!
...Mannloon great pictures thanks . Olivedrab...that was a nice job on the Tiger...Coen...as usual , cheers. Modelfan...I'm not a Humbrol fan I much prefer Mig or Tamiya but I can use the colour as a referrence,,,thanks mate
cheers
M

[Coen]

Those life magazine pics are superb for lots of reasons. Colour reference is a bit wonky though. The fire burning in some of those shots changes the tone of the yellow a bit by changing the lighting, adding a orange/yellow glare.
The developing trends at the time also tended to make photos come out with a slight greenish or bluish tone. So this makes using them as a colour reference difficult as well.
This has also been part of the argument for years.

[HamilkarBarkas]

The colours in these photographs are definately distorted, but to what extent is unclear.
The question of the particular sand yellow colour is almost as old as the history behind it, i think it is pretty much impossible to be sure. So, in that case, choose the paint that looks right to you, no one can prove you wrong

[OliveDrab]

What I find most interesting in the photos is the color of the surrounding landscape. Lots and lots of green, which I suppose could support the theory of Tiger tanks being painted olive green????? Thanks for posting theses pics Adam, they are spectacular!

[burnie43]

Yeah, I agree with these answers, I remember reading somewhere that when Tigers arrived in Tunisia at first they were painted grey and then given a light green coat once in theatre as the landscape had lots of green in it,.....not all deserts are sand I guess..
M

[rwsmith14]

there are a few discussions on this subject in the Tiger I SIG-In Honour of Coen ,in the Threads where desert Tigers are being built.

[mannloon]

I know there are slight hue shifts from absolute reality in those pics. But it's the closest and clearest I've felt to seeing things as they really were. As Everyone else says, use what yellow (or whatever color) works best for you. I use Tamiya because it's close enough for me, but more importantly I can spray it with my crap airbrush skills. If I get better I may change to another color.

I don't know about you guys, but those pictures make me feel weird. It's like looking through a dimensional portal.

Here's the few others I have. I didn't know some people hadn't seen them.

I didn't have this one but I just went and found it. In case you were wondering how the Tiger's got that destroyed. Also the paint before the massive fire, but as was pointed out, still a bit wrongish for color reference. But I like the color.


I assume this is that explosion


More of the wreck of 3 Tigers and some Panzer IV's(so I read on Network54)


Same battle


The Tigers are burning


This is brings it home a bit


This one is epic, but I didn't post it as the color is not discernible


This one is a real conversation starter as it's Panzer Gray in North Africa. So the idea of Gray Tigers being shipped there is certainly possible. Worth noting is if you look at the feifels on the Tiger pics I posted earlier they look Panzer Gray, I'm just not sure if they'd been burnt or if they were just that color. I've seen debates that they were painted a different color on DAK Tigers. a 250

[Coen]

These are classic photos Adam.
There's a large number of these Life Magazine photos out there. I found a website once that had them all on it but it's long since gone boom poofy-poofy. I should have downloaded the lot of them.
I'll be theifing yours though
haha.

[mannloon]

Steal away. They're very inspiring.

[burnie43]

These photo's really are great!! Note to self....keep them!!
Thanks ...giving me some great diorama ideas!
Mark

[SteelScooter]

Hi Guys,

For me the pride of Bovington Tank Museum, Tiger 131, has the base colour just about 'right'.





Scooter

[Akula1959]

You know, I got a shudder seeing the one pic with the GI placing demo charges on that one Tiger. The history buff and modeller in me was going "NOOOOOOO! Stop!" this is important for the future!

*sarcasm* C'mon, didn't these guys know what a treasure trove they were blowing up? *end sarcasm*

[burnie43]

You know, I got a shudder seeing the one pic with the GI placing demo charges on that one Tiger. The history buff and modeller in me was going "NOOOOOOO! Stop!" this is important for the future!

*sarcasm* C'mon, didn't these guys know what a treasure trove they were blowing up? *end sarcasm*

If only he knew......how many times did these things happen tho?
I was lucky enough to get a private behind the scenes wander around Bovington and it's incredible how, even after all the attempts to destroy and all the passing years , these vehicles are still " alive" even the King Tiger that was dug up at Fallaise a number of years ago.......they are monsters!!

[Akula1959]

Having been lucky and a member of 2 US armoured cavalry units in my career, I was ALWAYS impressed at the sheer presence of those beasties. They weren't alive, nor did they seem to watch me, but they gave me the impression of saying: Yes, I am here. Even in the dark on the track park while on guard duty, you feel some presence all around you. GRANTED that could have been the ghosts of old German soldiers, our barracks/kaserne has an underground park dating from WWII and several bunker emplacements, but I always thought it was the tanks. Waiting for that call if the balloon ever went up.

[DByrden]

I was just away to start building the Tamiya Afrika Korps Tiger 1 Initiall Production kit 35227 and I thought that I'd just have a look at the colours used for this...... MAN .... there seems to be a big debate on actual colours for these vehicles...

There were no Tigers in the Afrika Korps. All of the Tigers in Africa belonged to the 5th Panzer Army. Let's just get that out of the way so you know why there's no "palm tree logo" on the decal sheet.

The colours of these tanks, on delivery from the factory, were the first "tropical" colours, RAL8000 and RAL7008. The camouflage pattern unfortunately doesn't show up in B/W photos.

The Tigers of the 501st had some of their equipment added while they were still in training in Germany. At that time the battalion (not the factory) were switching to the second "tropical" scheme. So you will see some items on these tanks painted RAL8020. They are clearly a lighter shade, even in a B/W photo.

David

[DByrden]

This one is very good reference.

Yes, it is.
Most of the tanks in this "graveyard" were destroyed in explosions that covered them in earth. We can find interior parts that we know to be painted grey, and they are now brown like the outside.

But there are a few places where this Tiger didn't get covered in mud, such as the hull side in the middle of this photo. It shows a very subtle camouflage pattern; the colours are RAL7008 and RAL8000, the ones used in Bovington Museum's Tiger.

The jack is a lighter, pinkish brown. This is RAL8020.

David

[DByrden]

What I find most interesting in the photos is the color of the surrounding landscape. Lots and lots of green, which I suppose could support the theory of Tiger tanks being painted olive green????? Thanks for posting theses pics Adam, they are spectacular!

Northern Tunisia is farmland and it's possible that some of these Tigers never went near a desert.

The Tigers described as "olive green" by British observers were at this place, about 500 yards ahead. They were pushed off the road but not completely exploded like these ones. The observers were therefore describing the same colours as on the Bovington Tiger. But it's possible that the crews made these tanks more green by painting more RAL7008 over the brown areas.

David

[DByrden]

Yeah, I agree with these answers, I remember reading somewhere that when Tigers arrived in Tunisia at first they were painted grey and then given a light green coat once in theatre as the landscape had lots of green in it,.....not all deserts are sand I guess..
M

These Tigers were probably never painted grey. They were assigned to s.Pz.Abt. 501 and therefore to Africa while at the factory. They were shipped to the training grounds at Fallingbostel, Germany in the first "tropical" scheme.

The district in the photo is not a desert. It is farmland with streams.

David