Mini and Micro Machines for Model Making

[NoelSmith]

I have started this thread for general discussion about small machines, tools and equipment for model making.
They can be lathes, milling machines, bench drills, saws, in fact any small bench top machines that can be used for model making.

A look at Proxxon's on line catalogue will give a good idea of what sort of machines I am talking about as they have a very large range of different miniature machines in their range.

I set up this thread as Casper's thread in Land Vehicles about his 1/12th scale Blower Bentley was drifting into a small machine discussion.

[digger303]

Proxon's lathe certainly has it's genesis in the Toyo machine. I presume they have gone on to improve it and now have a number of different models. The top one I can get here retails for around $9,500. For the life of me it is impossible for me to find a way to justify that type of out lay for such a small machine. I quite like this one . It has the power for small steel work and enough room between spindle and chuck for some versatility.
I wouldn't suggest it has the absolute accuracy of better brands yet it could be a lot of fun.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12400496406 ... ctupt=true

Still needs some extra's though so I expect the cost would get to around 2000 so unless I sell my metal detector it won't be happening.
The cheaper lower power machines don't have the power to shave through steel and most have plastic gears which are always failing if stressed.

[NoelSmith]

Digger, a lathe costing $9500 Australian dollars must be a benchtop high end machine and probably would be that bit larger than the ones that I have in mind like the Unimat 4 or just slightly larger machines costing around £400 to £600 sterling.
I agree with what you say about the lower cost/power machines struggling with steel, even free machining mild steel. The modellers I have in mind are not into model engineering as such making large scale working traction engines and locomotives, but more the modeller like myself, graduating from kits into scratch building static scale models whereby the main usage would be plastics, wood, brass and aluminium. The lower cost machines are perfectly capable of working those materials, and my little Unimat is fine for this sort of work as would be similar sizes machines

[Twokidsnosleep]

Very interested in this topic
I am off to the hobby shop today actually...will see how much a Sherline retails for here in Canada

[NoelSmith]

Scott, from what I have heard, the Sherline is a very nice little good quality machine that looks to be about the size of my Unimat 4.
Would be interested to find out the Canadian price. It must be nice to be able to go to a hobby shop to see one.
Sherline do have an agent/outlet in the UK and perhaps one of these days I will go to take a look.
You might be interested in Joe Martin's book about miniature machining, a Sherline publication.
If new to machining it contains a wealth of information.
The Unimat 4 has now ceased production. That particular machine was made in Taiwan whereas the previous models were made in Emco's own facility in Austria.
Rumour has it that there were some quality issues with the 4, but mine seems to be OK having bought it new a number of years ago.

[Twokidsnosleep]

Lowest version was $1400CAD
This was motor, rail and tailstock...very bare bones, no tool rests or cutters
They went up dramatically from there about $2700 was the higher end version that he had

[digger303]

Digger, a lathe costing $9500 Australian dollars must be a benchtop high end machine and probably would be that bit larger than the ones that I have in mind like the Unimat 4 or just slightly larger machines costing around £400 to £600 sterling.
I agree with what you say about the lower cost/power machines struggling with steel, even free machining mild steel. The modellers I have in mind are not into model engineering as such making large scale working traction engines and locomotives, but more the modeller like myself, graduating from kits into scratch building static scale models whereby the main usage would be plastics, wood, brass and aluminium. The lower cost machines are perfectly capable of working those materials, and my little Unimat is fine for this sort of work as would be similar sizes machines

https://www.mytoolstore.com.au/categori ... e-Systems/

No it is around the same size at 550w, but it is a cnc machine.

Technical specifications:

distance between centres: 400mm
cross slide travel: 85mm
over the top slide: 116mm
cast iron base, ground and hardened ways
oversized spindle with two adjustable taper bearings
cutting tool dimensions: 10mm x 10mm
taper: MK3
bore: 20.5mm
run-out (without chuck): 0.005mm
spindle speeds: 1400rpm, 2800rpm
motor output power: 550W
zero-adjustable scaled wheels on all axes
wheel resolution: 1 division = 0.05mm
auto feed speed: 0.07mm/rev, 0.14m/rev
integrated gearbox for metric threads: 0.2mm, 0.25mm, 0.3mm, 0.35mm, 0.4mm, 0.45mm, 0.5mm, 0.6mm, 0.7mm, 0.75mm, 0.8mm, 0.9mm, 1.0mm, 1.25mm, 1.5mm, 1.75mm, 2.0mm, 2.5mm, 3.0mm
range of possible imperial threads: 10TPI - 48TPI
tailstock chucking capacity: 10mm

The next model down and the price drops to a still hefty 5,200 then down to 2,500. But with all these the distance between centres is 400mm for the top 2 models then it drops to 250mm. So not a lot of room once you add tool rests and the like.

Admittedly I was thinking I don't like machines that struggle for power and it didn't seem to be such a big jump to go for a slightly lager model for the extra versatility. If one does have a piece larger than 600m and in reality that free space is much smaller then as long as it isn't larger than 38mm it can be inserted through the centre of the chuck. That did appeal to me.

[NoelSmith]

Scott, I will have to convert your CDollar price and get a feel for the cost in sterling of the basic Sherline machine.

Digger, the fact that the A Dollar price of 9500 for a CNC machine puts the price you mentioned more into perspective.

For those unfamiliar with engineering terms reading this thread CNC is an abbreviation for Computer Numerical Control.
What this means is that a profile of the part to be made is drawn up on computer using a CAD (Computer Aided Design) program that translates the drawing into machine code and downloaded to the machine for manufacture. The main advantage of CNC is repeat manufacture.
The vast majority of model makers probably would not benefit from CNC except perhaps the period warship modeller turning out many identical cannon barrels of other repeat parts.

Many of you will have heard of 3D Modelling. For this a 3D image has to be generated on computer and downloaded to a 3D Printer by generating what is called an STL file to transfer the information for manufacture.

[digger303]

Scott, I will have to convert your CDollar price and get a feel for the cost in sterling of the basic Sherline machine.

Digger, the fact that the A Dollar price of 9500 for a CNC machine puts the price you mentioned more into perspective.

For those unfamiliar with engineering terms reading this thread CNC is an abbreviation for Computer Numerical Control.
What this means is that a profile of the part to be made is drawn up on computer using a CAD (Computer Aided Design) program that translates the drawing into machine code and downloaded to the machine for manufacture. The main advantage of CNC is repeat manufacture.
The vast majority of model makers probably would not benefit from CNC except perhaps the period warship modeller turning out many identical cannon barrels of other repeat parts.

Many of you will have heard of 3D Modelling. For this a 3D image has to be generated on computer and downloaded to a 3D Printer by generating what is called an STL file to transfer the information for manufacture.

Yep CNC ups the price a lot, without that feature the same machine is still very expensive at 5000

[NoelSmith]

Digger, 5000 A dollars seems a lot of money for a small manual centre lathe.
What make and model is the machine you are referring to? I guess it may be a bigger machine altogether.
My little Unimat 4 was about £ 450 when I bought it new, admittedly about 12 years ago. It is quite a small machine that I can lift easily from one bench to another.

[digger303]

Digger, 5000 A dollars seems a lot of money for a small manual centre lathe.
What make and model is the machine you are referring to? I guess it may be a bigger machine altogether.
My little Unimat 4 was about £ 450 when I bought it new, admittedly about 12 years ago. It is quite a small machine that I can lift easily from one bench to another.

Same proxon machine without the cnc....Still quite a small machine power wise

Technical specifications:

distance between centres: 400mm
cross slide travel: 85mm
over the top slide: 116mm
cast iron base, ground and hardened ways
oversized spindle with two adjustable taper bearings
cutting tool dimensions: 10mm x 10mm
taper: MK3
bore: 20.5mm
run-out (without chuck): 0.005mm
spindle speeds: 1400rpm, 2800rpm
motor output power: 550W
zero-adjustable scaled wheels on all axes
wheel resolution: 1 division = 0.05mm
auto feed speed: 0.07mm/rev, 0.14m/rev
integrated gearbox for metric threads: 0.2mm, 0.25mm, 0.3mm, 0.35mm, 0.4mm, 0.45mm, 0.5mm, 0.6mm, 0.7mm, 0.75mm, 0.8mm, 0.9mm, 1.0mm, 1.25mm, 1.5mm, 1.75mm, 2.0mm, 2.5mm, 3.0mm
range of possible imperial threads: 10TPI - 48TPI
tailstock chucking capacity: 10mm
tailstock travel: 40mm
overall dimensions: approximately 900mm x 400mm x 300mm
mass: approximately 45kg

Included components:
rotating MK2 centre
tailstock chuck
leadscrew for automatic thread cutting
graduated top slide with taper turning capability
toolpost with adjustable toolholders


Kind of think there has been a lot of mark up loaded onto these Proxon hobby machines. They can definitely cut much smaller threads and a cast iron base makes them more stable and less inclined to twist were as some Chinese have aluminum base, plastic gears and the like. They also have a integrated gear box for thread cutting where as most cheaper Chinese gear requires you to change the belt to another pulley or change a gear.
The unimat is a great concept and not a bad machine as I understand it. Just a little under powered and the duty cycle for the electric motor isn't great. A lot of motors get replaced because some push it a little too hard. That's why my preference is to go bigger if possible.

Don't misunderstand me....Proxon are too expensive for most of us me included although no doubt a great bit of gear for softer metals.
I would look at buying a Chinese model. You paid about 900aud for yours 12yrs ago. They are now about $1200aud gst (vat) included so for me looking at a machine with 2x the power and 4 times the capacity for 1478 aud gst included is not such a stretch except I have to find the hard earned first. Plus I might be able to use it occasionally for my work. Could probably get a tax deduction for it.
In either case unimat or a alternative one still has a lot of extra's to buy as well.



Ps....I lifted this off the Sherline site
Many machinists find that the extra space between centers comes in handy when working with a part held in a chuck and a larger tail stock chuck with a long drill bit in place. The combination of chucks, part and drill can eat up a lot of the available center-to-center distance, and a little extra capacity is often appreciated.

[Casper]

Proxxon PD250E with PF230 mill and drill head looks a nice machine and you really need the 400mm but very expensive for what they are.
The Sherline lathes are well over priced and in my opinion badly made, you will end up modifying these machines to get a decent cut. The Unimat looks like a great bench (hobbyist) machine for small work but again in my opinion over priced and your very limited in what you can do, its great for small modelling work though. Things aren't made to last these days, we live in a throw away society sadly. Gone are the days where you hand scrape a tool, now you just replace it.

[Casper]

Proxxon PD250E with PF230 mill and drill head looks a nice machine and you really need the 400mm but very expensive for what they are.
The Sherline lathes are well over priced and in my opinion badly made, you will end up modifying these machines to get a decent cut. The Unimat looks like a great bench (hobbyist) machine for small work but again in my opinion over priced and your very limited in what you can do, its great for small modelling work though. Things aren't made to last these days, we live in a throw away society sadly. Gone are the days where you hand scrape a tool, now you just replace it.
You can pick up a Raglan under a £1000 and Converted to single phase or something like a Chester 920, Drummond or Myford ML3

[digger303]

Proxxon PD250E with PF230 mill and drill head looks a nice machine and you really need the 400mm but very expensive for what they are.
The Sherline lathes are well over priced and in my opinion badly made, you will end up modifying these machines to get a decent cut. The Unimat looks like a great bench (hobbyist) machine for small work but again in my opinion over priced and your very limited in what you can do, its great for small modelling work though. Things aren't made to last these days, we live in a throw away society sadly. Gone are the days where you hand scrape a tool, now you just replace it.
You can pick up a Raglan under a £1000 and Converted to single phase or something like a Chester 920, Drummond or Myford ML3

[Casper]

wonder what it goes for
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124727459759 ... Sw3ipgoUof

[Casper]

google Lorch Watchmakers Lathe
http://www.lathes.co.uk/lorch-model-a/

[digger303]

wonder what it goes for
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124727459759 ... Sw3ipgoUof

Dunno , but he said it needs setting up.....maybe or could be a bigger problem. Bed might be worn and need skimming.

Hard to find machines such as this freely available here....sigh

[NoelSmith]

Casper, the Myford ML3 went for £325 on Ebay.

[NoelSmith]

Getting away from micro lathes, has anyone got any of the other large range of Proxxon table top machines like their bandsaw, circular saw, router, thicknesser or any of their little power band tools, and how do you get on with them?
A couple of small non power tools of theirs that I use constantly is a small machine vice with a thumb screw that is very useful for holding small pieces by hand on my bench drill. Another of their tools is a swivel vice on a large ball joint that is great for holding pieces at different angles to work on.

[Casper]

Casper, the Myford ML3 went for £325 on Ebay.

Not bad, needs some work of course but a great price if you have a local machine shop for re surfacing and hand scraping, and it came with a stand.
casp

[digger303]

All I have is the hand drill Micromot 50E and the pen sander.
The pen sander was a waste I didn't use it much at all. They all need to be connected to a external power supply of there making. There is a small one which is very basic and can only plug one machine into at a time with no on off switch. I have since upgraded to the heavier supply which one can plug up to 3 machines and there is a spare plug for something ? A on off switch and a bit holder on top plus a side tool caddy. I like having a on off switch where I can reach.
I might like to get a foam cutter too at some later date.

[NoelSmith]

Yes, some of the much smaller tools need a transformer that I guess is what you are referring to Digger.
I have a little 12v Expo Drill that needs one. Generally, once you have the transformer it is handy for other small 12v tools to. My transformer has no potentiometer control knob to slow speeds down, so I would advise anyone seriously looking for a transformer to pay that bit extra to have that better level of control.
Quite a number of years ago I bought the modular Unimat 1 machine that can be configured in different ways and utilised the transformer from that machine for my Expo Drill. But I will invest in a transformer with more speed control, and might be able to use it as a speed control on the Unimat 1 as well.

[Twokidsnosleep]

I have a Sherlune 4000 18” lathe available in my city. $750
He says it runs perfectly, not sure what it comes with accessory wise. Thinking.
The new one at hobby shop always $1400 and tax on top

[digger303]

I have a Sherlune 4000 18” lathe available in my city. $750
He says it runs perfectly, not sure what it comes with accessory wise. Thinking.
The new one at hobby shop always $1400 and tax on top

Just googled it.....are you sure this is the one to go for ? The very fact it says you should install a dust cover over the motor if using wood or brass . May be covering a multitude of short cuts when this was designed.

[Twokidsnosleep]

I have a Sherlune 4000 18” lathe available in my city. $750
He says it runs perfectly, not sure what it comes with accessory wise. Thinking.
The new one at hobby shop always $1400 and tax on top

Just googled it.....are you sure this is the one to go for ? The very fact it says you should install a dust cover over the motor if using wood or brass . May be covering a multitude of short cuts when this was designed.

Yes very much researching it.
Either a good deal and gets me started with a decent enough machine to attain the level I want…or it is a disaster.
Price is good if ok, very adaptable later

[Twokidsnosleep]

I have a Sherlune 4000 18” lathe available in my city. $750
He says it runs perfectly, not sure what it comes with accessory wise. Thinking.
The new one at hobby shop always $1400 and tax on top

Just googled it.....are you sure this is the one to go for ? The very fact it says you should install a dust cover over the motor if using wood or brass . May be covering a multitude of short cuts when this was designed.

Another look at the website and I found the toggle switch dust cover they recommended for brass or wood

It is just a rubber surround for the switch so small chips don’t get into the switch and short things out
No big deal

[Twokidsnosleep]

I put in my offer, seller is very reticent and unwilling to deal
I am certainly at the high end for this level of machine and would get it for locality, availability and timeliness
If he declines any more I am better buying new which is what I will do

[RangerNeil]

Best of luck - hope the deal goes through for you.

[digger303]

I put in my offer, seller is very reticent and unwilling to deal
I am certainly at the high end for this level of machine and would get it for locality, availability and timeliness
If he declines any more I am better buying new which is what I will do

Does the machine come with a basic kit of extra's that would justify his stance ?

[Twokidsnosleep]

I put in my offer, seller is very reticent and unwilling to deal
I am certainly at the high end for this level of machine and would get it for locality, availability and timeliness
If he declines any more I am better buying new which is what I will do

Does the machine come with a basic kit of extra's that would justify his stance ?

So it would get me in the micro lathe game at let’s say the high end of cost with a basic but capable machine that is US made and has lots of parts available…not cheap.
It is local in my city, here and now, no shipping, no transport damage, no borders, no taxes etc.
Get it and start tomorrow, let’s me tinker and mess with it and then add as I see fit likely a mill unit that is avaliable…but I would like to do that for $200 or so less to allow for further buyance of stuff
It is used. It has no warranty. It is the lowest model with the fewest options available unless he is not showing stuff he would include. I bet my nuts the cutting tools are all f’d.
Furthermore, The seller is morose. He has not been congenial AT ALL. Like I am bothering and insulting him.
I don’t do well when I get snubbed, insulted or pissed. I just walk. We are $50 off asking and he hasn’t responded, like I have insulted him again.
I am in no rush and can buy a brand forking new one if I so choose. Just gives me more experience, make me think why I want one and I have read and watched quite a few machining videos in two days

I thank you for the questions and interest digger, you help me mentally with this
I bent BFRD’s ear too

[digger303]

I put in my offer, seller is very reticent and unwilling to deal
I am certainly at the high end for this level of machine and would get it for locality, availability and timeliness
If he declines any more I am better buying new which is what I will do

Does the machine come with a basic kit of extra's that would justify his stance ?

So it would get me in the micro lathe game at let’s say the high end of cost with a basic but capable machine that is US made and has lots of parts available…not cheap.
It is local in my city, here and now, no shipping, no transport damage, no borders, no taxes etc.
Get it and start tomorrow, let’s me tinker and mess with it and then add as I see fit likely a mill unit that is avaliable…but I would like to do that for $200 or so less to allow for further buyance of stuff
It is used. It has no warranty. It is the lowest model with the fewest options available unless he is not showing stuff he would include. I bet my nuts the cutting tools are all f’d.
Furthermore, The seller is morose. He has not been congenial AT ALL. Like I am bothering and insulting him.
I don’t do well when I get snubbed, insulted or pissed. I just walk. We are $50 off asking and he hasn’t responded, like I have insulted him again.
I am in no rush and can buy a brand forking new one if I so choose. Just gives me more experience, make me think why I want one and I have read and watched quite a few machining videos in two days

I thank you for the questions and interest digger, you help me mentally with this
I bent BFRD’s ear too

Might be better off taking a drive south and pick up a new one with a package included . The basic bits you need such as a quick change tool holder, live centres etc etc can push the price up considerably on a second hand unit plus he might have stuffed it somehow. Dropped it, twisted the bed....who knows. At least with new you have warranty and you'll be much happier in mind....the body is another matter....

[BigWall]

I think he may be playing the "Ya, whatever" card to make you come to him.

I'm sure he's not getting other offers and you probably could out wait him.

BUT, it sounds to me like it's not the machine you want.

[NoelSmith]

The seller I guess is holding out for the price he wants.
I would suggest that you go and view the machine, and take along a friend who is an engineer who can check it out for you if you are not a machinist engineer yourself. Make sure you see it running and ask what tooling and accessories come with it.
Take cash in hand to make an offer if the machine is ok. That usually tempts a bit of negotiation. The seller's demeanour is of no relevance. Focus on the machine. If it is not up to the standard that you are expecting and the price is still non negotiable then walk away! There will be plenty of other machines to look at.

[Twokidsnosleep]

Thanks guys
There are other machines out there for sure, so not obsessed with this particulate one or model
I don’t need to buy anything right now so the tactics won’t work on me

We are selling a car right now and have the other end of the stick too. Kind of funny and ironic to see behaviours
I must admit purchase/sales are not my favourite pastimes
A drive down south and pick up a new one when Covid clears up more might not be a bad idea