Friday Diatribe #20….censoring

[Twokidsnosleep]

Now a real political hot topic seen daily in the news:

Censoring of signs, logos, political party designations, removal of statues and removal of history.
We see this increasing in society these days.
Bans on use of such things pertinent to modelling including
Nazi symbols, Confederate flags, alcohol and tobacco adverts etc
What are your thoughts?

Hot topic question so let’s be civilized, but let’s hear your say
The inspiration for this diatribe was touched on this a while ago in a very good thread
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=28947&p=359683&hil ... ar#p359683

[Stokesy44]

Hmm, interesting topic Scott.

First up is the use of hate symbols on models. Personally I see nothing wrong with putting the swastika on German aircraft. However, given how difficult it can be to police whether its use in photographs is innocent and purely for historic accuracy as opposed to a hate sign and a dog whistle for the far right, I can see why it is banned on some social media and in Germany itself. If it somehow lessens the spread of hate then I'm all for it.

The confederate flag - again, nothing wrong with historical accuracy usage but when used as an advert for what it stood for then no. Under no circumstances should it be used by people promoting an agenda.

The trashing of statues - that's a tough one. It always comes back to slavery when these items are in the news. You cant just say its a reflection of the times, people didnt know any better etc. I think that's wrong. A fundamental sense of decency and right and wrong should have ensured slavery never existed but profit, expediency and a lack of international law trashed all that. So what do you do with the statue of a man who built a town from the ground up but did it on the profits from slavery? My thoughts are take the statue down and have some kind memorial which mentions the person but also gives equal exposure to the wrongs he did. Statues of individuals by their very nature hold the person as someone to look up to. get rid of them and have something else that records the history but not the adulation.

I'm very wary of the mob and the scenes we saw a while back now. I don't trust their motives or the people manipulating them.

Removal of history. Under no circumstances should we 'remove', 'alter', or 'whitewash' history if it does not suit our current world view. Winston Churchill wrote, “Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We must never change the past because it makes us feel uncomfortable, never. History is hard, it can be a bitter pill to swallow - the acts of our forefathers. We must dig into it, get dirty in it. Its not black and white, its uncomfortable reading sometimes. People who fail to scratch the surface of history yet spout their opinions about what so and so should have done or not done infuriate me. The biggest questions and decisions from our past deserve the biggest and deepest analysis. Take Churchill himself, he had some awful opinions on race and Empire but without doubt, his actions in 1940 stopped the whole of Continental Europe from falling either to the Germans or the Russians. If GB had capitulated and without resistance in the West, Hitler may well have conquered the USSR in 1941, or Russia might have held him off and eventually rolled the Germans back, if that had happened, Stalin would not have stopped until he got to Calais. BUT. Given Churchill's opinions on race and Empire what do we say to the person who threw red paint over his statue in Whitehall?

Books are being taken out of curriculums because they have opinions that reflected the time in which they were written. We must be careful here, surely its better to educate why certain things are being said in a Children's classic than pretending that novel never existed. Surely its representative of the struggle so show it but also to show how far we've come. IF we have come far.

David

[Twokidsnosleep]

David is out of the gate strongly
Well written and good points.
I am off to look up the Whitehall incident on Churchill...ok 25 yr old JM was a yob in my opinion spraying red paint on a statue of Churchill. Explanation for his actions were "Churchill was a capitalist, didn't emancipate women and didn't free India"....things that happened with time and new thinking. The luxury JM has to so 'protest' this way in a democratic/capitalistic western society, the very thing he dislikes and protests?? You would be shot in Russia and many countries for those actions.
We have had a number of similar incidents in Canada like that too hence the inspiration for the thread. They took place last week with red paint and then knocking down a statue in Vancouver's "Gas Town" area exactly as David says. A town built up by a man who did some not so great things as well as great things.

Well done David, a good start off

[RangerNeil]

Hmmm - breakout the fire extinguishers??? This certainly a hot topic...

Wading in then, both feet first - history is history. It is not for anyone - no matter how self-righteous or virtue signalling to alter, deface or "cancel". Its is there to learn from so that future generations avoid the mistakes of their predecessors. If the actions of some who lived hundreds of years & who are comemmorated in statues and pictures run counter to modern thinking a info-plaque should be placed beside the relevant item explaining this. No one - absolutely no one - has the right to decide because they are offended the item in question should be removed/destroyed. In the UK we saw this attempted with the statue in Bristol and the gravestone of Guy Gibsons dog. The man commemorated in the Bristol statue donated much to the city but the one act of involvement in the slave trade had morons trashing it. And yet if you try saying to such ones these events occurred in a time when slavery was a norm so if the act of slavery is that offensive to them why don't they do something about modern slavery you get a mouthfuls of insults
Gibson dog was named "Nigger" because he was brown and "Nigger Brown" is still a valid colour name albeit with one "g" dropped I believe. Nothing to do with derogatory nicknames for other races - yet the RAF had to replace it with a stone that had the name removed to appease the morons who threatened to destroy it.
The one line of humour came from Rhodes College in Oxford. A young BAME female student lead a protest demanding the statue of Rhodes be removed and the college renamed. The Rhodes foundation turned around and said "certainly - start packing your bags". Seems most of the students were there from 3rd world countries on Rhode scholarships. The foundation took the view that if the students were offended by statue and name it stood to reason they were offended by the money paying for them to be there and would want it stopped. That being the case they no longer had a legal reason to be in the UK. The prost fizzled out rather abruptly. You have to laugh sometimes.
Slavery is an evil institution - no one in their right mind can deny that - but I get sick and tired off being told it was all the fault of the British Empire given the effert Britain put into stamping out the slave trade. It also annoys me intensely being told the white man made slaves of the Africans. In point of fact the slave captains bought "Merchandise" - in itself an evil enough act - from the people whom actually made human beings slaves - tribal Kings getting rid of PoW's and excess population plus anyone who upset them. Islamic slavers who captured tribes people either by wiping out villages or abducting people out working in the Bush. These practices go on to this day

As regards symbols - once you start where do you stop. German aircraft carried the Hakenkreuz on their tails and we see these being omitted now from box art and in some cases decal sheets. Box art is debatable but they should be on the decal sheet for the builder to make his mind up. Aircraft of the Reggia Aeronautica had the three axes in bundles of rods as insignia. Do we ban those too? Because that's the origin of the term Fascist. The axe surrounded by rods is a symbol of power and strength through unity from ancient Rome and in Latin is know as "Fascisti". Going to extremes - or possibly not the way the world is seemingly going - the ones who decry the bombing of Dresden might say the WW2 Roundel used by Bomber Comand offends them - do kit makers stop supplying them?

As with the statues - they are history one and all and its not for a minority to impose their will on all. Only the kit builder should have the right to decide what insignia are used.

OK - time to go stick my head in a freezer to cool down.

[digger303]

Hmmm - breakout the fire extinguishers??? This certainly a hot topic...

Wading in then, both feet first - history is history. It is not for anyone - no matter how self-righteous or virtue signalling to alter, deface or "cancel". Its is there to learn from so that future generations avoid the mistakes of their predecessors. If the actions of some who lived hundreds of years & who are comemmorated in statues and pictures run counter to modern thinking a info-plaque should be placed beside the relevant item explaining this. No one - absolutely no one - has the right to decide because they are offended the item in question should be removed/destroyed. In the UK we saw this attempted with the statue in Bristol and the gravestone of Guy Gibsons dog. The man commemorated in the Bristol statue donated much to the city but the one act of involvement in the slave trade had morons trashing it. And yet if you try saying to such ones these events occurred in a time when slavery was a norm so if the act of slavery is that offensive to them why don't they do something about modern slavery you get a mouthfuls of insults
Gibson dog was named "Nigger" because he was brown and "Nigger Brown" is still a valid colour name albeit with one "g" dropped I believe. Nothing to do with derogatory nicknames for other races - yet the RAF had to replace it with a stone that had the name removed to appease the morons who threatened to destroy it.
The one line of humour came from Rhodes College in Oxford. A young BAME female student lead a protest demanding the statue of Rhodes be removed and the college renamed. The Rhodes foundation turned around and said "certainly - start packing your bags". Seems most of the students were there from 3rd world countries on Rhode scholarships. The foundation took the view that if the students were offended by statue and name it stood to reason they were offended by the money paying for them to be there and would want it stopped. That being the case they no longer had a legal reason to be in the UK. The prost fizzled out rather abruptly. You have to laugh sometimes.
Slavery is an evil institution - no one in their right mind can deny that - but I get sick and tired off being told it was all the fault of the British Empire given the effert Britain put into stamping out the slave trade. It also annoys me intensely being told the white man made slaves of the Africans. In point of fact the slave captains bought "Merchandise" - in itself an evil enough act - from the people whom actually made human beings slaves - tribal Kings getting rid of PoW's and excess population plus anyone who upset them. Islamic slavers who captured tribes people either by wiping out villages or abducting people out working in the Bush. These practices go on to this day

As regards symbols - once you start where do you stop. German aircraft carried the Hakenkreuz on their tails and we see these being omitted now from box art and in some cases decal sheets. Box art is debatable but they should be on the decal sheet for the builder to make his mind up. Aircraft of the Reggia Aeronautica had the three axes in bundles of rods as insignia. Do we ban those too? Because that's the origin of the term Fascist. The axe surrounded by rods is a symbol of power and strength through unity from ancient Rome and in Latin is know as "Fascisti". Going to extremes - or possibly not the way the world is seemingly going - the ones who decry the bombing of Dresden might say the WW2 Roundel used by Bomber Comand offends them - do kit makers stop supplying them?

As with the statues - they are history one and all and its not for a minority to impose their will on all. Only the kit builder should have the right to decide what insignia are used.

OK - time to go stick my head in a freezer to cool down.

Well I'm, just going to say as I think it has been said already by better word smiths than I.......I agree !
AND will just add this . Men have done great things and those very same men have done some horrible deeds. History is history learn from it , but don't try to rewrite it.

[Twokidsnosleep]

Really good so far gentlemen, some excellent points and examples
Please continue, a little fuel for the fire…. Are these ok and in good taste??

[Stokesy44]

Really good so far gentlemen, some excellent points and examples
Please continue, a little fuel for the fire…. Are these ok and in good taste??

There's a trick here. The Luftwaffe badge is an amalgam of old and new. It has been adjusted by the removal of the naughty cross with the more acceptable iron cross - something shown on modern German Military vehicles as well as pre 1933 German Military. Mind you, the eagle is representative of the Luftwaffe that existed only during the time of the national socialists. The modern Luftwaffe has no such emblem.

As for the tank mug, no idea. I dont speak Fritz.

[KungFuDrew]

Definitely a red hot topic. In my view history shouldn't be censored, in any way. The fact of the matter is that these events happened, in real life, to real people. By choosing to ignore past events, we are doomed to repeat them. By deciding that the actions of past figures don't align with our current world view and then demonising them, all we do is make it easier for extremists on both sides to twist history to suit their needs. As Stokesy pointed out, Churchill was vital to the war effort, but he also had some views that would be totally unacceptable today. Does this make him good? Or bad? To me this makes him human. This isn't Star Wars, where you're on the light side, or the dark, this is real life where there's many different shades of grey. To add to this, Hitler was a total koo koo b*stard, and yet he was a teetotal vegetarian who opposed animal hunting, values that would be seen as admiral today. But we need to look at the entirety of his and the Nazi's history to judge them on, not just the bits we want to see. As anyone who watches WW2 in Real Time on Youtube knows "History doesn't happen in a vacuum".

For the Germans censoring the swastika, I can understand this. They have a relationship with the swastika unlike any other nation, so if removing that totem helps reduce the amount of extremism then great, as long as the history is being taught.

My thoughts are take the statue down and have some kind memorial which mentions the person but also gives equal exposure to the wrongs he did. Statues of individuals by their very nature hold the person as someone to look up to. get rid of them and have something else that records the history but not the adulation.

I'm very wary of the mob and the scenes we saw a while back now. I don't trust their motives or the people manipulating them.

Removal of history. Under no circumstances should we 'remove', 'alter', or 'whitewash' history if it does not suit our current world view.

I just wanted to highlight this as this is almost word for word what I've been saying since those events took place. If we erase the man from history, we also erase the people who suffered.

Anyway, onto models. I'll build an aircraft with a swastika on it, because those aircraft had swastikas on them. Same with tanks or ships. The people that flew/operated those machines were not guaranteed to be die hard Nazis. However, I refuse to build anything with SS markings, or if I find out a pilot was a Nazi. I'll use different markings instead. So for instance I would build a tank operated by Knipsel or Carius, but I'll never build Wittmann's Tiger. Those are just my thoughts, others may vary.

[aur0ra145]

Well.



Censoring of signs, logos, political party designations,
We see this increasing in society these days.

I wrote a large response that rambled a bunch. I'll sum it up with the following...

What I see now is embracing The paradox of tolerance which states: "That if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant." While this does have some merit. However, it's being used in a "if you don't agree with me then you're a (insert bad group here)."

What I think is happing here is an overreach combating this principle. It's not that bad yet, but, it could be.

This is why we see historical symbols and what-not being torn down, people being silenced and non-mainstream points of view being struck. Nazis are bad, but equating everyone who disagrees with you as a nazi, then silencing their views is a slippery slope into tyranny while having a face of moral correctness.

With regards to model making. If it's historically accurate, put a hakenkruez on it. Who cares? Museums should NEVER destroy their artifacts for moral correctness, that undermines what museums are all about! Bad stuff happened in the past, we don't need to dumb it down because someone might be triggered by it. That's how we learn. If you can't stomach history, then stick to Twitter. Erasing history will definitely doom us to repeat it. We need to study it, learn, and improve upon our society from what transpired previously.

An example of bending history to your side: In 1945 the US military bombed Hiroshima, which resulted in 140,000~ casualties, mostly civilian. Was this evil? Needed to bring a swift end to the war? Are we okay with killing that many non-combatants to save the 1 million~ estimate of combat troops to take Japan? I don't know. But the fact is... The US killed a LOT of Japanese civilians. Like a whole lot. But, it's taught in the US as a needed thing, and we don't talk about the Japanese civilian life loss. Just it happened, and the war ended.

I do understand that I'm approaching Goodwin's law. From wiki

Godwin's law, short for Godwin's law (or rule) of Nazi analogies,[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that as an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Adolf Hitler approaches 1.[2][3] In less mathematical terms, the longer the discussion, the more likely a Nazi comparison becomes, and with long enough discussions, it is a certainty.

Bottom line. Keep history, history. We all have an interest in history and build your models how you see fit. I do put hakenkruez on my Bf-109's. However, when I post them on social media, I make sure the shots don't show it. So I'm not labelled a nazi sympathizer.

In my "What-if" builds, I tend to leave the hakenkruez off. I just don't think an x-wing or AT-ST would look good with one. But dang the AT-ST looks good in a panzer paint scheme.

removal of statues and removal of history.

I don't know where I stand on this one. My mom's family was from the south, my dad's family from the north. I.e., I had family members fight and die on both side of the American civil war. I totally understand the premise from both sides. Slavery, while a premise was not the only reason the war was fought. Slavery is very bad. States right are good! (but they were wrong about the whole slavery thing.)

On the statues, this in the US is mainly surrounding if the figure was a slave owner. I honestly don't know how to go about this. Is a person a sum of their accomplishments? Or should you be cancelled for a single bad tweet? What was the norm of time? Does Nestle having basically slave labor a reason to not support them? What about Nike and China? Do we need to demolish the Jefferson memorial? (This is admittedly a "whataboutism" argument.)

Whataboutism: the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.

Again, I don't really know where I fall on this one. I do like the idea of an accompanying placard saying the rest of the story. Or a "Full Disclosure" type of thing.

Bans on use of such things pertinent to modelling including Nazi symbols, Confederate flags, alcohol and tobacco adverts etc
What are your thoughts?

Booze and smokes? Sounds like a good Friday night! Does not need to be censored. Kids ain't dumb, stop treating them like idiots. You're only breeding a stupid populace.

For the Confederate flag. Meh, I don't care. Put it on the General Lee, that's how it was. I still don't understand why these guys reenact a war they lost. I honestly don't think these people who are upset about the Confederate battle flag could ID the actual CSA flag. (hint: they're different.) Also the idiots that fly the Confederate battle flag probably don't know the difference either.

On an aside about hiding stuff from kids. If you were a kid around the 1990's in the US you did the DARE program. Basically, DARE to resist drugs. It was a thing about how smoking some weed would make you a crazed multi murderer or something. Drugs were so taboo that no one knew what was what. More importantly, weed was equated to heroin or meth. When they are by no bounds alike. (I myself have never experimented knowing I always wanted to enter the military.)

The findings:

Researchers at Indiana University, commissioned by Indiana school officials in 1992, found that those who completed the DARE program subsequently had significantly higher rates of hallucinogenic drug use than those not exposed to the program.

Please if you have a different point of view, quote my lines you don't agree with and we can have a nice chat about it. Beers are on me.

[RangerNeil]

Really good so far gentlemen, some excellent points and examples
Please continue, a little fuel for the fire…. Are these ok and in good taste??

There's a trick here. The Luftwaffe badge is an amalgam of old and new. It has been adjusted by the removal of the naughty cross with the more acceptable iron cross - something shown on modern German Military vehicles as well as pre 1933 German Military. Mind you, the eagle is representative of the Luftwaffe that existed only during the time of the national socialists. The modern Luftwaffe has no such emblem.

As for the tank mug, no idea. I dont speak Fritz.

Assuming it reads "Panzers Mit lorbeer und pervitin handgeschöpft in de Deutsche" then it translates to the best of my ability to:
"Panzers Handmade in German with laurel and pervitin"

Which seems relatively harmless aside from Pervitin being a form of Crystal Meth.....

[BigWall]

The founding documents for my country guarantee the right to free speech. I would die for the rights of those that don't agree with me and I don't think that sentiment runs both directions.

My family history is very much the history of the founding of this country. I had family members come over on the Mayflower. I had 7 family members fight in the Revolutionary War. This all really means a lot to me.

I can't pretend to have the answers. I think I have to take the Star Trek outlook and see that as bad as we have been, we are constantly striving to improve ourselves. We cannot hide from the past. We can look up and to the future.

[Stokesy44]

Assuming it reads "Panzers Mit lorbeer und pervitin handgeschöpft in de Deutsche" then it translates to the best of my ability to:
"Panzers Handmade in German with laurel and pervitin"

Which seems relatively harmless aside from Pervitin being a form of Crystal Meth.....

Sounds like the mantra of the US Army on the Rhine in the 70s/80s - drive tanks, do drugs. what can possibly go wrong?

[DRUMS01]

Wow, I believe that what needs to be said has already been posted, well said everyone. If you don't mind, I would like to add the following twist on this..

- Just because someone may be fortunate enough to live in a country that allows free speech, it does not mean that free speech is truly free. What I mean is you cannot say just anything about anything and not expect repercussions. The same goes with actions, meaning you may have the freedom to do something but you can't just do anything and everything. In most cases the ability to speak freely is directly tied to the amount of money, or influence one has to defend that free speech. So free speech is not really "free" is it?

- Never forget that mass media has regulations which are controlled by big government. In fact, most media in any country is censored by Government to both control the masses and steer agendas. Don't forget that most of history is written and thus shaped by the winners of a conflict. That history influences our views of everything from people, objects, government, etc. Even in the event of smaller news, it is still shaped in the opinion and viewpoints of the media owner or their editors which are politically controlled at some level. Those views are shared and adopted by those who read it. Then those people determine what is good or bad, what should be kept or removed.

- There is a distinct difference between learning and respecting culture and history versus living today in a way that represents views or actions that support or sustain a dark bad time of that same culture or history. Freedom is only freedom if it does not seek to hurt, harm, or break laws.

- Everyone is not a winner, and everyone is not self entitled. Likewise removing any and all history that may offend one person to make a vanilla world where everything is sunny, sweet, and perfect is impossible and unrealistic. There are some very good reasons to keep ones cultural history and historic names, places, events, or things sustained and relevant. For no other reason than to honor those who sacrificed and to remember the reason or issues behind the event so we may learn from them.

- In this world of many millions, living under various different governments, oppression, privilege, and such, you will never please everyone all of the time. Actually, in my country, state, county, city, community, basically anywhere where two or more people live, there will never be a time where utopia exists and everyone is pleased and content with everything all the time. That is not reality.

- I served in my countries military for many years and afterwards for my Government. I took an oath to support and defend the constitution and freedoms of the U.S. to include the ability for others to say and live in ways that I may not agree with.

- I believe that I am blessed to live in a nation, while not perfect, that gives me the freedoms I have. I know that I am extremely fortunate that I have food, water, shelter, utilities, sanitation, healthcare, clothing, and live in an infrastructure that supports life. For those who have the opportunity to voice their opinions here, I hope we all remember the many, embarrassing level of benefits and pleasures we have and enjoy versus the masses who fight to live or just survive every day. Ask them about the censoring in our countries and you will get a very different answer than what we express.



DRUMS01 / Ben

[RangerNeil]

Assuming it reads "Panzers Mit lorbeer und pervitin handgeschöpft in de Deutsche" then it translates to the best of my ability to:
"Panzers Handmade in German with laurel and pervitin"

Which seems relatively harmless aside from Pervitin being a form of Crystal Meth.....

Sounds like the mantra of the US Army on the Rhine in the 70s/80s - drive tanks, do drugs. what can possibly go wrong?

Ummmm.- how about a troop of M60's laagering up on the WRONG hilltop because whoever was mapreading was stoned.
Not a big problem I hear you say.
Bloody is when there's a 4 man patrol dug into a MEXE hide on that hilltop to observe OpFor activities in that area - and to make matters worse the b*gg*rs "parked" one of the M60's over the access hatch so we couldn't get out. Just enough room to lift the hatch for ventilation. On the plus side every radio transmission we sent during those 5 days was put down to the M60's - and the MEXE's periscope was unobstructed so we were happily observing everything that moved - as well as everything we heard through the opened hatch... The M60's should have laagered up on the hill the other side of the valley. I heard after EndEx that when the powers-that-be heard what had happened there were a few demotions in the US 3rd Armoured. They weren't too happy a troop of their tanks had been parked on top of a patrol that was observing movements and signalling them back to Blue Forces HQ and never heard, saw - or indeed smelt - anything.....

[digger303]

Assuming it reads "Panzers Mit lorbeer und pervitin handgeschöpft in de Deutsche" then it translates to the best of my ability to:
"Panzers Handmade in German with laurel and pervitin"

Which seems relatively harmless aside from Pervitin being a form of Crystal Meth.....

Sounds like the mantra of the US Army on the Rhine in the 70s/80s - drive tanks, do drugs. what can possibly go wrong?

Ummmm.- how about a troop of M60's laagering up on the WRONG hilltop because whoever was mapreading was stoned.
Not a big problem I hear you say.
Bloody is when there's a 4 man patrol dug into a MEXE hide on that hilltop to observe OpFor activities in that area - and to make matters worse the b*gg*rs "parked" one of the M60's over the access hatch so we couldn't get out. Just enough room to lift the hatch for ventilation. On the plus side every radio transmission we sent during those 5 days was put down to the M60's - and the MEXE's periscope was unobstructed so we were happily observing everything that moved - as well as everything we heard through the opened hatch... The M60's should have laagered up on the hill the other side of the valley. I heard after EndEx that when the powers-that-be heard what had happened there were a few demotions in the US 3rd Armoured. They weren't too happy a troop of their tanks had been parked on top of a patrol that was observing movements and signalling them back to Blue Forces HQ and never heard, saw - or indeed smelt - anything.....

[Twokidsnosleep]

Some amazing opinions stated in here, really well thought out and I am impressed with the civility

Bans on use of such things pertinent to modelling including
Nazi symbols, Confederate flags, alcohol and tobacco adverts etc
What are your thoughts?

Alcohol and tobacco ad bans on sporting events and cars seem silly….they get around it with implied colours and partial logos.
I suppose some are influenced by that but most are smart enough not to be
We should absolutely have the ad,decals on model cars and I buy aftermarket decals specific to the car.

The Nazi thing is easy for me as I don’t build tanks and such and really my favourite planes were all the Allies’. Should we let the model have a swastica?? Yes I suppose it can if it had those insignias. Not a fan of the ‘what if’s’ of spaceships and Star Wars with nazi logos.

Confederate flags is an interesting topic. I see that flag as an a Southern boy kinda F you to the government. It was decided that the flag represented slavery and pro slavery groups. I don’t have that history, experience or agenda so I don’t see the general Lee or the Bandit vehicles as something to be censored and not built. If I grew up in the southern United States, I probably would have a different opinion.

Lots of comments touched on statues and such being defaced or removed. Super hot topic in my province at the moment. There are some with an agenda to promote their issues and force change to their benefit. Not sure if destroying and ignoring history is the right way. We are humans and have our strengths and flaws. Great people have done terrible things that were probably considered very normal during their time. Current civil disobedience and protestors are happy to break laws, inconvenience others and be a general pain for the sake of ‘the cause’ or whatever is happening In their mind that second. Others are happy to be racist against those they consider oppressors because of their skin colour. I have been told to my face that there is no reverse racism ie They can do and say anything They want b/c of their skin colour. That is silly to me and incredibly hypocritical. There is a good bible quote about “let he without sin cast the first stone”
Now I am just babbling.

[Stokesy44]

Some amazing opinions stated in here, really well thought out and I am impressed with the civility

F*** You!

Couldn't resist

[cor]

Blimey Scott, lighting the fuse. Interesting to read all that though. Excuse me while i just turn the extra cooling fans on the computer . . .

Here's my 2 cents. If you build a model, and are interested in having it looking like it was on the battlefield or race track or where-ever during the time it existed, then it should definitely be your choice if you want to put these symbols on it. Its one more thing in a big list of things that you are being told you can or can not do, in your own home even . . . If you dont want to put a sticker on, then dont, end of story, job done, alls well in the world. Where it all goes wrong is when someone thinks their opinion is the righteous opinion, that they have the higher moral ground, and everyone else needs to think the same way. No reverse racism? That's ridiculous. "Most people are other people, their thoughts a mimicry, their lives a quotation" Oscar Wilde. Our opinions are based on a history written by the winner, as Ben said, so our opinions are probably based on a lie anyway. Propaganda shapes public opinion, not truth.

I'll never build a Japanese military vehicle because of my opinion, being an Australian, of the Japanese during the East Asia Greater Prosperity Sphere incident, aka Japans involvement during ww2 and before - Nanking anyone? and their treatment of everyone who was not Japanese, actually even the way they treated each other is unmentionable. I've read tons of books about this, heard stories out of the mouths of the men and women who were there, and must admit I wont know the real truth, who really does, but if someone builds a cool model of a zero or whatever, then I can appreciate it. I may even mention that there is evidence nuclear weapons dont actually exist, and that the so-called nuclear destruction of 2 more cites, after 66 cites had already been reduced to smoke and ashes from conventional bombing, had nothing to do with japan surrendering as they were arming the women and children with sharp sticks to prepare to fight a nuclear armed america, and that the emperor never actually surrendered, and in his speech at the end posited japan as the saviour of the world in somehow stopping america from destroying everyone else with their bombs. Im not making this up. Is someone else? I dont know. The evidence only suggests . . .

Anyway, the information out their is always more that what we have in your head, yet our opinions seem to us to be solid facts. Its strange stuff. With covid out there, we see in shops "zero tolerance towards bad behaviour towards staff" Fine. But zero tolerance imho is the problem.

[Twokidsnosleep]

Well, anyone building modern Russian aircraft at the moment???

[Stokesy44]

Well, anyone building modern Russian aircraft at the moment???

I just cant get my head around it. This is no different what we saw 80 odd years ago in Poland and a hundred other places. Only difference this time in no one is coming to help.

Sad times

[Twokidsnosleep]

Well, anyone building modern Russian aircraft at the moment???

I just cant get my head around it. This is no different what we saw 80 odd years ago in Poland and a hundred other places. Only difference this time in no one is coming to help.

Sad times

I thought the same thing. Deja vu all over again.
Unjustified claims on Poland to roll troops into there, world says oh he will stop there we will be ok….ya nope

[Tomcat64]

Late to this party but a fascinating read catching up.

I very much agree with a lot of what has already been said but here's my tuppence worth.

Regarding kits & the markings on them a couple of people have already hit the nail on the head in that if it's your kit you get to choose what's on it to your own taste. What I would say is remember that it's not necessarily the kit manufacturers who are doing any perceived censoring by not including the markings on their decal sheets, they are simply following the law (or erring on the "safe" side of the law) in the markets in which they're selling. So it's entirely possible that the same kit will include different markings for its European release than for its US release for example. Hence the reason there is a thriving after market in countries where the markings aren't so restricted. Also despite most of us being "grumpy old men" model kits are still seen widely as something primarily aimed at a younger market and whilst acknowledging Brad's view that kids aren't dumb restrictions on what they're exposed to tend to be tighter than for adults.

With regards to history as Ben already said history is generally written by the victors so it will be biased to some degree; it absolutely should not be rewritten to appease those that don't like what happened, but I believe it should be corrected if new evidence comes to light and is corroborated so that it is as close to the truth as possible. Also an interview with the cricketer Michael Holding that I heard last year got me to thinking about how history is very much written and taught at least here from a European perspective. I was brought up being taught that Australia was "discovered" by James Cook and the Americas were "discovered" by Columbus, however "discovery" implies that nobody knew about those places and although they may have been the first European visitors those places and others were very much known by indigenous people so I do believe that history should reflect as many different viewpoints of the recorded events as possible even if that becomes a tougher read for those of us who live in countries that previously had colonies.

To touch on the specific example of Hitler and the Nazis it's vital that these vile people are not erased from history, and in fact we absolutely need to understand and learn from how they got to where they did so we can avoid ending up in the same situation in the future (I'll come onto Ukraine in a moment). Many people do not realise that Hitler was legally made chancellor of Germany by other political players who thought they could control him and were subsequently killed for their misapprehension. But the reason he was in that position was because the Nazi party had been elected to hold the highest proportion of the German parliament in democratic elections - so we need to understand why such a large proportion of the population were so disenfranchised by the depravations of the Versailles treaty and the subsequent depression that they voted for these animals. Someone mentioned in a similar thread recently that he was rightly concerned by the apparent rise of right wing extremism but as well as condemning those leading activists we also need to understand what's driving other people in that direction and take that away.

So finally the appalling situation in Ukraine, and the parallels with the late 1930s are all too apparent, weeks or months of meaningless wrangling gambling on the idea that Russia would not invade, despite evidence to the contrary with regards to the annexation of Crimea in 2014. My own view is that one difference here is that I don't believe Putin has the support of the Russian people in this, whereas a significant majority of Germany probably did support Hitler's initial invasions believing that he was simply taking back what rightfully (in their view) belonged to Germany and was taken away following Versailles. Happy to be corrected on this one or discuss further.

My final thought is that I've been truly humbled by the Ukrainian people that I've heard on radio & TV interviews.

[tg18083]

Now a real political hot topic seen daily in the news:

Censoring of signs, logos, political party designations, removal of statues and removal of history.
We see this increasing in society these days.
Bans on use of such things pertinent to modelling including
Nazi symbols, Confederate flags, alcohol and tobacco adverts etc
What are your thoughts?

Hot topic question so let’s be civilized, but let’s hear your say
The inspiration for this diatribe was touched on this a while ago in a very good thread
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=28947&p=359683&hil ... ar#p359683

Writing this from the perspective of - American, white male, 56, good job, Masters degree (undergrad in History), liberal, straight, married, father, no military service. Sorry not gonna address tobacco or spirits - the limits on those, advertising/marketing/consumption are public health issues and a bit of a distraction.

Interesting you cite the confederate flag and nazi symbols - here in the US, neither are censored. Photos exist of both being on display on 6-Jan-21 in the US Capital building. None of the 6-Jan terrorists have been charged with displaying a censored symbol. If I jumped in my car, I could easily find a confederate flag within minutes. Within an hour, I could find a statue of a confederate general in a public square.

Never of those things have been censored - rather - they have been confronted and exposed by rational and intelligent people as symbols of evil and oppression through public pressure campaigns. The movement by these rational and intelligent people has called for, and in some cases been successful, the removal of these symbols from public property. This IS NOT denying or erasing history - it is removing the celebration of evil and oppression.

Actual censorship, again from the perspective of an American, is happening right now in the form of right-wing astroturf anti-CRT / anti-LGBTQ+ strong arming of public school curriculum. It is alarming. Teaching actual history has been censored but the confederate flag has not. Censorship is a tool of the right-wing not the left. 'Not All Boys Are Blue' and any reference to racism ARE illegal in certain school districts, but nazi symbols and confederate flags ARE NOT illegal anywhere. Just to be clear - the forces actually pursuing censorship ARE RIGHT WING. Cancel culture is not censorship.

All that being said - I do not think these things should be censored. In our hobby, I think we should be able to build what inspires us. Manufacturers should be able to make and sell what we (the market) demands.

I build allied subjects from WWII - no fascists. Someday I'll post photos - I promise I am not a troll - I actually do participate in the hobby.

[RangerNeil]

Well, anyone building modern Russian aircraft at the moment???

Errrr - that would have been me if I had somewhere to build anything....

[Garion77]

Well, anyone building modern Russian aircraft at the moment???

I am building my old Mig-21 at the moment for the GB...and let's say that yesterday, when putting on the first color on top of it I kind of felt bad as I had just watch the news all over the word. And found horrible what is happening. I've got a colleague that is from Romania and fled during USSR dominion to Canada with his children, only toddlers at the time and was telling me it's like seeing the regime coming back to life. And I have also a friend, from Poland, who's grandmother saw the Nazi invade as a teenager. And again for them, it's like seeing the same thing happening...and it is ! Hitler justified his invasion the same way Poutine is doing with Ukraine... so sad to see that all over again. My girlfriend's nephew is currently station with the Canadian Arm Forces in Lithuania...and let's just say the tension is pretty high and that they expect the offensive to get bigger. Let's hope not !

[digger303]

Well, anyone building modern Russian aircraft at the moment???

I am building my old Mig-21 at the moment for the GB...and let's say that yesterday, when putting on the first color on top of it I kind of felt bad as I had just watch the news all over the word. And found horrible what is happening. I've got a colleague that is from Romania and fled during USSR dominion to Canada with his children, only toddlers at the time and was telling me it's like seeing the regime coming back to life. And I have also a friend, from Poland, who's grandmother saw the Nazi invade as a teenager. And again for them, it's like seeing the same thing happening...and it is ! Hitler justified his invasion the same way Poutine is doing with Ukraine... so sad to see that all over again. My girlfriend's nephew is currently station with the Canadian Arm Forces in Lithuania...and let's just say the tension is pretty high and that they expect the offensive to get bigger. Let's hope not !

High hopes I think with that 64km long convoy heading in. A lot of arty in that convoy.
The peace talks are a crock.
Putin will have to look strong with the west attacking the coffers of those in charge. They won't like that and I believe cause Putins stress levels to rise.

[NoelSmith]

So, do we close down most of the museums in the world displaying Egyptian, Greek, Roman and other ancient civilisations artefacts as many of their societies depended on slaves?

[digger303]

So, do we close down most of the museums in the world displaying Egyptian, Greek, Roman and other ancient civilisations artefacts as many of their societies depended on slaves?

Of course not truthful history is a learning experience or at least it should be celebrating the bad isn't to be encouraged although it shouldn't be hidden either.

[Twokidsnosleep]

Looking a the War summary from the weekend.
You really have to give the bravery resolve and courage to the Ukraine fighters and people. Impressive resistance.
Russia may win the battles but never the war and will be thrown back in the dark ages again and Putin finally assassinated.

[digger303]

Looking a the War summary from the weekend.
You really have to give the bravery resolve and courage to the Ukraine fighters and people. Impressive resistance.
Russia may win the battles but never the war and will be thrown back in the dark ages again and Putin finally assassinated.

Yes I don't think Putin will live past 73

[RangerNeil]

Looking a the War summary from the weekend.
You really have to give the bravery resolve and courage to the Ukraine fighters and people. Impressive resistance.
Russia may win the battles but never the war and will be thrown back in the dark ages again and Putin finally assassinated.

Yes I don't think Putin will live past 73

Apparently he is now making threats towards Poland. This will bring Russian forces head to head with NATO as Poland is a member state. That can only end one way. Lets hope there are some commanders left with brains AND a conscience in the Russian military!!

[digger303]

Looking a the War summary from the weekend.
You really have to give the bravery resolve and courage to the Ukraine fighters and people. Impressive resistance.
Russia may win the battles but never the war and will be thrown back in the dark ages again and Putin finally assassinated.

Yes I don't think Putin will live past 73

Apparently he is now making threats towards Poland. This will bring Russian forces head to head with NATO as Poland is a member state. That can only end one way. Lets hope there are some commanders left with brains AND a conscience in the Russian military!!

He did make threats earlier against any country that helps the Ukraine, but I guess with all the obvious humanitarian aid they have been giving and being front and centre on the news. He feels he has to make those sort of threats to shore up his position. It ain't going to work because his bluff will be called and he is in no position to attack another country unless he wants to widen the conflict. To bring in Nato and China in order to gain more support at home,but I think I'm way off base with that idea.

[Stokesy44]

As soon as someone mentions 'China', the word 'Korea' always springs to mind. Scary, scary stuff.

If Putin attacks Poland then that's NATO and all for one, one for all kicks in.

This is all just thinking out loud, its what's actually happening that's heart breaking. I caught the BBC news 2 night ago after a school had been hit. 2 Kids were in hospital and it made my blood boil, how can this be allowed?

[RangerNeil]

As soon as someone mentions 'China', the word 'Korea' always springs to mind. Scary, scary stuff.

If Putin attacks Poland then that's NATO and all for one, one for all kicks in.

This is all just thinking out loud, its what's actually happening that's heart breaking. I caught the BBC news 2 night ago after a school had been hit. 2 Kids were in hospital and it made my blood boil, how can this be allowed?

This is not the Red Army I studied and knew back in the Seventies. Like it or not - under the CCCP any commander who auhorised ordered or even gavetacit approval to the atrocities seen recently would have been dismissed from post. And probably shot. The Soviet army was all conscript (but the adage quantity has a quality all of it own was most certainly true) from below the rank of Michmanyy (warrant officer) however the offficer corps as a whole were highly educated & trained professional soldiers to be respected.
I was discussing this with a friend who used to lecture on the Soviet military at Sandhurst. He'd been asked what the difference was between then & now. He'd replied quite simply under the Red Army of the Seventies Ukraine as in independent state would have ceased to exist after 3 days. That being the time it would have taken 500,000 men and machines to steam roller the countryside til they reached the far borders by-passing the cities. The assault would have come in summer when the ground was dry and the Ukranian military would have ceased to be a functioning asset by the end of day 1. Once the country side was secure attention would turn to the cities with the offer of surrender or else. Refugee columns would be untouched, civilians would not be deliberately targetted save perhaps in house to house clearing. The current operation simply would not have happened under that army.
Which, when you think about it, is a seriously scary thought for today.

[digger303]

As soon as someone mentions 'China', the word 'Korea' always springs to mind. Scary, scary stuff.

If Putin attacks Poland then that's NATO and all for one, one for all kicks in.

This is all just thinking out loud, its what's actually happening that's heart breaking. I caught the BBC news 2 night ago after a school had been hit. 2 Kids were in hospital and it made my blood boil, how can this be allowed?

This is not the Red Army I studied and knew back in the Seventies. Like it or not - under the CCCP any commander who auhorised ordered or even gavetacit approval to the atrocities seen recently would have been dismissed from post. And probably shot. The Soviet army was all conscript (but the adage quantity has a quality all of it own was most certainly true) from below the rank of Michmanyy (warrant officer) however the offficer corps as a whole were highly educated & trained professional soldiers to be respected.
I was discussing this with a friend who used to lecture on the Soviet military at Sandhurst. He'd been asked what the difference was between then & now. He'd replied quite simply under the Red Army of the Seventies Ukraine as in independent state would have ceased to exist after 3 days. That being the time it would have taken 500,000 men and machines to steam roller the countryside til they reached the far borders by-passing the cities. The assault would have come in summer when the ground was dry and the Ukranian military would have ceased to be a functioning asset by the end of day 1. Once the country side was secure attention would turn to the cities with the offer of surrender or else. Refugee columns would be untouched, civilians would not be deliberately targetted save perhaps in house to house clearing. The current operation simply would not have happened under that army.
Which, when you think about it, is a seriously scary thought for today.

Interesting view on the differences and as a lot has been made of the quality of logistics today. What was it like back in the 70's and were they doing the necessary maintenance required to keep everything in shape. Has it all degenerated from the 70's or just parts of the military ?

[ForbesHutton]

As soon as someone mentions 'China', the word 'Korea' always springs to mind. Scary, scary stuff.

If Putin attacks Poland then that's NATO and all for one, one for all kicks in.

This is all just thinking out loud, its what's actually happening that's heart breaking. I caught the BBC news 2 night ago after a school had been hit. 2 Kids were in hospital and it made my blood boil, how can this be allowed?

This is not the Red Army I studied and knew back in the Seventies. Like it or not - under the CCCP any commander who auhorised ordered or even gavetacit approval to the atrocities seen recently would have been dismissed from post. And probably shot. The Soviet army was all conscript (but the adage quantity has a quality all of it own was most certainly true) from below the rank of Michmanyy (warrant officer) however the offficer corps as a whole were highly educated & trained professional soldiers to be respected.
I was discussing this with a friend who used to lecture on the Soviet military at Sandhurst. He'd been asked what the difference was between then & now. He'd replied quite simply under the Red Army of the Seventies Ukraine as in independent state would have ceased to exist after 3 days. That being the time it would have taken 500,000 men and machines to steam roller the countryside til they reached the far borders by-passing the cities. The assault would have come in summer when the ground was dry and the Ukranian military would have ceased to be a functioning asset by the end of day 1. Once the country side was secure attention would turn to the cities with the offer of surrender or else. Refugee columns would be untouched, civilians would not be deliberately targetted save perhaps in house to house clearing. The current operation simply would not have happened under that army.
Which, when you think about it, is a seriously scary thought for today.

Interesting view on the differences and as a lot has been made of the quality of logistics today. What was it like back in the 70's and were they doing the necessary maintenance required to keep everything in shape. Has it all degenerated from the 70's or just parts of the military ?

Back in the day the conscripts were motivated to do well as when they got out every job was a government job and poor reviews/performance in uniform would affect which job they could get and their whole future. Those with connections to the party were officers and could either make a career of it or get the same connections to find them a good "civilian" job. Of course, compared to the west, there wasn't a huge difference in lifestyle between a garbage man and a doctor.
Now, the conscripts are paid next to nothing (not that that has changed), but the civilian job market is wide open. Even the biggest screw up has an uncle that will give him a job in a furniture factory that pays 10 times the military salary, and their military record means nothing to anyone outside the military, so they are all just counting the days until they get out.
Even with the officers, their pay is low compared to the civilian market, bright kids want to get into the free market and make real money, so they officer core is left with those that know they won't cut it, or those who love the level of abuse and sadism in the Russian military (beatings are normal, male on male rape is common).
So, the current Russian military is basically the evil leading the damned.

[RangerNeil]

As soon as someone mentions 'China', the word 'Korea' always springs to mind. Scary, scary stuff.

If Putin attacks Poland then that's NATO and all for one, one for all kicks in.

This is all just thinking out loud, its what's actually happening that's heart breaking. I caught the BBC news 2 night ago after a school had been hit. 2 Kids were in hospital and it made my blood boil, how can this be allowed?

This is not the Red Army I studied and knew back in the Seventies. Like it or not - under the CCCP any commander who auhorised ordered or even gavetacit approval to the atrocities seen recently would have been dismissed from post. And probably shot. The Soviet army was all conscript (but the adage quantity has a quality all of it own was most certainly true) from below the rank of Michmanyy (warrant officer) however the offficer corps as a whole were highly educated & trained professional soldiers to be respected.
I was discussing this with a friend who used to lecture on the Soviet military at Sandhurst. He'd been asked what the difference was between then & now. He'd replied quite simply under the Red Army of the Seventies Ukraine as in independent state would have ceased to exist after 3 days. That being the time it would have taken 500,000 men and machines to steam roller the countryside til they reached the far borders by-passing the cities. The assault would have come in summer when the ground was dry and the Ukranian military would have ceased to be a functioning asset by the end of day 1. Once the country side was secure attention would turn to the cities with the offer of surrender or else. Refugee columns would be untouched, civilians would not be deliberately targetted save perhaps in house to house clearing. The current operation simply would not have happened under that army.
Which, when you think about it, is a seriously scary thought for today.

Interesting view on the differences and as a lot has been made of the quality of logistics today. What was it like back in the 70's and were they doing the necessary maintenance required to keep everything in shape. Has it all degenerated from the 70's or just parts of the military ?

Been "out of the loop" for years now but from the news coverage Rus-Fed logistics certainly seems inferior to their Soviet era counterparts. Don't know about maintenance - most of the failure seem to be lack of fuel rather than mechanical or electrical faults. I remember speaking to a Russian guy at an MV show a few years ago who was a BMP driver and he told me training in the Soviet army was brutal but thorough. His instructor kicked him in the head if he made mistakes so by the time his course was complete he was absolutely proficient in that one task - and heavily bruised. Personal opinion only here - I get the feeling the Rus-Fed army is trying to emulate the multi-tasking of its US or UK counterparts whilst still using short term conscripts. In the Red Army they were taught to do one task and do it proficiently. Drawback being - for example - a PKM gunner couldn't use a radio and vice versa.But when the army was that big it wasn't a problem. Now the Rus-Fed army is a fraction of what it used to be but still short term conscript , not really having a core of professional NCO's. And end of the day its the NCO's that make an army efficient.