Armourfast SU-85 Diorama

Post by **PhildaFish** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:27 pm

I know these Armourfast kits are practically built already and don't require much skill at all to finish but I wanted to try out some extreme weathering and attempt to realistically destroy a tank. I guess this will be more of an experiment than a Group Build, so I hope you'll all enjoy watching me make a mess out of a kit...
Here's the box and sprue:

I've already built the other kit in the box and I undercoated this at the same time with a rattle can of Humbrol acrylic primer. I hope this doesn't contravene GB rules about using an un-started kit?

Post by **Paul** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:31 pm

Yes I think it'll be ok just being primed, if you hadn't of said I doubt anyone would have noticed anyway

Good luck with it phil

Post by **PhildaFish** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:34 pm

Thanks for the clarification Paul.
Unfortunately I can't show you the instructions pages as Armourfast kits don't have any! This exploded diagram on the back of the box is all you get to work by and, to be honest, it's all you need.

Post by **Paul** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:34 pm

PhildaFish wrote:Thanks for the clarification Paul.
Unfortunately I can't show you the instructions pages as Armourfast kits don't have any! This exploded diagram on the back of the box is all you get to work by and, to be honest, it's all you need.

Ha ha yes that's a simple instruction "sheet" alright

Post by **Lee** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:56 pm

Nice one Phil

Post by **bullgill67** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:30 pm

good luck with the build Phil

michael

Post by **gosselin2112** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:26 pm

Good luck with your experimentation. I myself have yet to try my hand at a burnt out/wrecked tank. Looking forward to see how she turns out.

Russell

Post by **PhildaFish** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:50 pm

I've had a good idea today which means I can't start building until I pop into town again tomorrow. I can't claim it as an original idea as I saw it done by a chap called Gerry on his display on the ATF stand at the Yeovilton Model Show: he used a battery operated LED flickering tea light inside a small cloud of cotton wool to look like anti aircraft fire. I intend to put one inside my SU-85 to look like it's on fire. Looked it up online and they sell them in the pound shop in town, wish I'd thought of it when I was in there yesterday buying tubs for my weathering powder experiment! Ah, well, I need the exercise!

Post by **Coen** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:03 am

Ok... this could be interesting to follow.
Clever boy!
I've heard of the tea light trick before but not seen.
Looking forward to watching your build!

Post by **PhildaFish** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:12 pm

Ok, I've been getting ahead of myself and not giving a you a history of the SU-85, so here's a quick bit of background, taken mainly from Wikipedia:

The SU-85 was a Soviet self-propelled gun based on the chassis of the T-34 medium tank, designed in 1943 to counter the German Tiger tanks whose armour was too thick for the T-34 or KV-1 to penetrate at a 'safe' distance. The designation SU-85 is derived as follows: 'SU' stands for the Russian: Samokhodnaya Ustanovka - self-propelled carriage, while "85" signifies the bore of the vehicle's armament, the 85 mm D-5T gun.

In May 1943, work was begun on a new anti-tank gun. Developers turned to adapting an 85 mm heavy anti-aircraft gun for this purpose. The gun was far too large to fit into the turret of the T-34 or KV-1, but it was thought it could be mounted in the chassis of the SU-122. Meanwhile, the SU-122 was rearmed with an existing 85 mm gun, the S-18, which was modified and improved in the process. Initially the production factory at Uralmash attempted to reject the design since the larger gun breech meant that the entire hull would need to be modified, but they were required to do so nevertheless, and the modified design was put into production.

Several prototypes of the SU-85 were created, and rejected for design flaws. After several changes, including another armament change to the D-5T, one was put into service as the SU-85. At the same time, the 85 mm D-5S, which had proven both effective and reliable, was modified to include a telescopic sight and a new ball mantlet design and retitled the SU-85-II.

SU-85 production started in mid-1943, with the first vehicles reaching their units by August. When the up-gunned T-34-85 medium tank entered mass production in the spring of 1944, there was no point in continuing production of a tank destroyer without superior firepower, so SU-85 production was stopped in late 1944 after 2,050 vehicles had been produced. It was replaced on the production lines by the SU-100 tank destroyer, armed with the more powerful 100 mm D-10S gun.

There were two versions: the basic SU-85 had a fixed commander's cupola with a rotating periscope and three vision blocks; the improved SU-85M had the same casemate as the later SU-100, with a commander's cupola as used on the T-34-85.

The SU-85 entered combat in August 1943. It saw active service in Soviet, Polish and Czechoslovak forces on the Eastern Front until the end of the war. It was obsolete by 1945, and was withdrawn from active service not long after the war, to be exported to many Soviet client states in Europe and elsewhere. The SU-85 remained in service longer in North Korea and Vietnam. The similar SU-100 remained in service much longer, and some SU-85 and SU-100 were converted and used as command and recovery vehicles.

Type: Tank destroyer
Place of origin: Soviet Union
Designer: Lew S. Trojanow
Weight: 29.6 tonnes (65,256 lbs)
Length: 8.15m (26' 9") overall, 6.10m (20') hull only
Width: 3m (9' 10")
Height: 2.45m (8')
Crew: 4 (commander, driver, gunner, loader)
Armour: 45mm (1.77")
Armament: 85mm (3.34") D-5T gun
Engine: V-2 12-cylinder diesel 500 PS (493hp, 368 kW)
Power/weight: 16,89 PS/tonne (12.43kW/tonne)
Suspension: Christie
Ground clearance: 400mm (1.31')
Fuel capacity: 540 litres, 810 - 900 litres (with additional fuel tanks)
Operational range: 400km (248m) (road)
Speed: 55 km/h (34 mph) (road)

Post by **PhildaFish** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:26 pm

So I've been to Poundland and picked up the flickering tea lights and also a couple of these e-book reading lights which are surprisingly powerful and one is now clamped on the edge of my desk for better lighting of close up work. It actually weighs so little I can clamp it to my specs without them falling off but I look like a complete window-licking nut case! (I mean even more than I actually am!)

As you can see this idea may have been easier for the larger scale armour, I'll have to do some serious fiddling to make this fit. I wonder how much is actually inside the white case?

Post by **Coen** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:43 pm

You sir... have your hands full.

Window licking nut case?

I'll have to remember that one. Funny.

Post by **PhildaFish** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:45 pm

Thanks Coen!
So here is the innards of the tea light and, as expected, there's not much to it. I started to cut the side away to make it fit and it was an exercise in futility...

... So I took the whole thing apart to see what was what and work out what I needed to do to make it light and flicker...

... The answer is: not a lot! It seems the flicker bit is part of the bulb so all I need inside the SU-85 is the bulb and I can have the battery outside. Just need to run some wire through it now.

Post by **Lee** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:01 pm

PMSL - There's nothing like a little reverse engineering - Excellent Phil

Post by **Coen** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:08 pm

Clever clever... you realise that now you've created a monster.
You've shown us all that you can take those things apart and recycle them for our own purpose.
Modellers are terrible for taking things and using them for something that they were never designed for.
You just exemplified that.
Good on ya!
I know that I'll be using these, campfire animations, burning tanks, trucks, planes, ships, window candlelight, etc.
Dude... endless.

Post by **5Craven** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:31 pm

Aircraft collision warning lights. That is if the flicker is regular?

Post by **PhildaFish** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:38 pm

Thanks guys - it's so nice to feel completely at home! Can't tell you how many beatings I had from my older brother as a child when I would take his favourite toys to pieces to see how they worked; if he hadn't beaten me up I would've put them back together again!!!
Unfortunately the flicker isn't regular, it has about 4 different brightness levels and randomly changes between them in no set order or regularity. I'm pretty sure you can buy an 'on off' bulb from an online model shop though, with all the wiring and other things you need to do it 'properly'.

Post by **Lee** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:43 pm

Maplins would be your friend

Post by **PhildaFish** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:03 pm

Maplins? (quick Google) WOW! So many gadgets n toys to play with!

Post by **Paul** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:48 pm

PhildaFish wrote:Maplins? (quick Google) WOW! So many gadgets n toys to play with!

I think you've googled Ann summers by mistake there.

Post by **PhildaFish** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:23 pm

Post by **PhildaFish** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:32 pm

Started work on the all-in-one wheels n tracks, they're big solid lumps of things and don't lend themselves to much fiddling around so I'll have to model this with tracks firmly in place. Shame, would've looked good with a broken track unravelled and flat on the ground. Anyway I've drilled out the holes in the rear wheel to give it a little more depth.

Post by **PhildaFish** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:31 pm

Next stage for the tracks is a really rough coat of Humbrol 113 Rust.

Then a heavy dry brush of my 20 year old Games Workshop Citadel Colours Boltgun Metal which doesn't really show up in this photograph.

Post by **Paul** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:33 pm

Off to a flying start mate

Post by **Coen** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:58 pm

Post by **PhildaFish** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:35 pm

Thanks guys! Moved back to the body of the tank and thought of painting the inside silver to reflect more of the flickering light, so I did this:

with an equally ancient pot of GW CC Mithril Silver.
Once I'd finished this I thought I'd treat myself to a treat from the snack cupboard and decided upon a Kit Kat. Whilst munching aforesaid chocolate I had a revelation!
To be revealed when I upload the next lot of photos!

Post by **PhildaFish** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:59 am

And the revelation is the shiny silver foil that the Kit Kat is wrapped in! Much more reflective than silver paint, just need to glue it in place without tearing it too much. I'll use PVA glue for it, it doesn't need to be a fantastic adherance as once the two halves of the SU-85 are glued together nothing will be able to damage the fragile foil. As the eagle eyed among you will have spotted, I was forced to eat another Kit Kat to get enough foil!

Post by **Lee** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:01 am

PhildaFish wrote:I was forced to eat another Kit Kat to get enough foil!

It's a hard life mate!

Post by **Paul** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:01 am

Greedy git

Post by **PhildaFish** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:19 am

I really need to start running again or get my kayak back on the water, starting to a bit wobbly round the edges with all these Kit Kats!

Post by **Coen** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:43 am

You just never stop with the clever do you?
I never would have thought of that.

Post by **5Craven** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:41 pm

Good job this isn't a 1/24 build then!

Post by **PhildaFish** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:30 pm

MMmmm... 1:24 scale... That's a lot of Kit Kats! I'd have to row from here in Bridgwater Bay all the way to you in Weymouth to burn that lot off!!!

Post by **Bagpiper** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:18 am

Excellent use of kit Kat foil mate. :Lol: Great build thread.

Good luck.

Jim

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:30 am

Cheers Jim!

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:08 pm

Right a little catch up, I had typed all this out yesterday but I have to click on the submit button 2 or 3 times before anything happens and sometimes it just goes to the 'page not found' page and I lose all of my typing

. This has been happening ever since my PC automatically updated to IE10 - coincidence?
Anyway, the foil is all in place (I'm not going to mention where I got the foil from anymore until Nestle pay me for advertising - one box per mention, please!) stuck down nicely with PVA glue; no tears or tears... that sounded right in my head but looks wrong typed out... but quite a few nice wrinkles to reflect at slightly different angles. The entire inside of the bottom half is covered with one piece of foil and the rear portion of the inside upper half is covered with another single piece. Here's a couple of pictures of it dry-fitted together:

In this next picture it looks like I've covered all the holes but it's actually the foil on the bottom reflecting the flash and looking like I've covered the holes which I haven't...

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:30 pm

Here's my first ever modelling video! This is a test run of the flickering light just to see how it looks inside the SU-85 before I start drilling holes and attaching wires.
[youtube]W3uNgyb1HsQ[/youtube]

Post by **Bagpiper** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:39 pm

Nice.. and as a wee side not I use Chrome as my browser and have never looked back. I had way too many problems with Internet Explorer. Sorry to go off at a tangent and hope I have not turned your thread into a discussion on web browsers.

Guess I'd better talk about your video to bring it back on track

But it is looking good mate - very neat idea. With all that foil inside I am really looking forward to seeing how you control the light to get the effect your looking for.

Cheers
Jim

Post by **Paul** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:03 pm

Brilliant Phil works spot on mate giving a great effect

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:24 pm

I've heard a lot of people say they prefer Chrome so I'm typing this using Chrome right now! Seems ok so far...
Control of the light, yeah that sounds like something I ought to try and do! I'll get back to you on that one, right now I'm just touching bare wires to the battery; it worked with the two pins coming out of the LED and it still works with 4 inches of copper wire tied on the pins. The next step is to try and fashion some sort of switch to the dio base with a removable battery holder too, all of this without actually spending any cash - that would be far too easy and I haven't got any anyway! I love a challenge!
Thanks Paul, I've had a few more ideas to try and make it even better and will type them up in a bit, including the ones that failed!

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:25 pm

Yep, one click and everything works, Jim! Good-bye IE10, hello British tax Googling Chrome!

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:11 pm

Coen wrote:You just never stop with the clever do you?
I never would have thought of that.

That's extremely nice of you to say but there's a thirty-something year long trail of mad experiments gone wrong behind me! In a minute I'll type up a few mistakes I've made in this build alone!
If I really was that clever I'd have sold at least one of my inventions (free green limitless energy for all? I have the plans right here! Say goodbye to the domino effect of braking! Solution is small and cheap to make and could be retro fitted to ANY vehicle, just say the word!)

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:14 pm

So this is what it looks like inside the SU-85 -

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:51 pm

Now onto the mistakes. Last night, whilst trying to sleep, I had the thought of painting the outside of the bulb with a thin coat of red paint to give a nicer fire effect, then my thought drifted on to painting the foil red to give a shiny red effect and finally my last thought that I remember before nodding off was to have 2 flickering lights wired up together, one normal, one painted red, to give a more convincing double flicker. So here's the results:

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:09 pm

Results? The red painted bulb still looks yellow, just dimmer. The red painted foil doesn't reflect any light at all. Two bulbs wired up together flicker at exactly the same time and the same brightness. Bugger.
Can't do anything about the red paint on the foil, thankfully I only did a couple of test patches so I don't have to redo the whole thing. I've scratched the red paint off of the bulb but left a little in case tonight, in darkness, when I look again there is a red tinge. Finally I've gone back to a single bulb as there was nothing to gain from having two.
Here's how it looks now although it's really hard to see the LED as I glued it in place on one of the red patches of foil and the copper wire is single strand and also hard to see... Basically this is a photo of things that you can't see.

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:58 pm

Another video to show you how it's looking with the bulb glued in place, wires extended through 2 holes in the bottom (later to go through the diorama base and, hopefully, into a switch there) and cotton wool to hide the bulb and diffuse the light. I think later I may rub some grey and black weathering powder to the cotton wool to give it a better smoke like effect. Anyway, excuse the poor camera-phone work.
[youtube]ivAyqwUgybo[/youtube]

Post by **Bagpiper** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:05 pm

OK the way you have them wired - in series means you are sharing the voltage across them. So if you are using 3 volts for example, each LED will only get 1.5 volts. If you want to increase the brightness (not double it - it does not work that way) you would need to wire them in parallel. i.e. both legs of each LED go to each battery + and -. But then your batteries would draw twice as much current and not last as long. Hope that helps explain why it is no brighter and how you can make it brighter if you need/want to.

Cheers
Jim

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:04 pm

Thanks Jim but the brightness wasn't the issue per se. When I wired them in series I used 2 batteries to get the right level of brightness. The issue was that when the bulbs "flicker" all they are doing is going from full brightness to low brightness to medium low bright to full bright etc. in what I thought was a random order at a random timing so I hoped to use a bulb on each side of the tank to get 2 different flickers randomly flickering away changing at different times to different brightnesses to add a little depth to the effect. What actually happened was both bulbs flickered in unison to the same level of brightness which made the 2nd bulb redundant. Does that make more sense? I didn't explain it very well the first time and I don't think I've made the situation any clearer!

Post by **Bagpiper** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:29 am

PhildaFish wrote:Thanks Jim but the brightness wasn't the issue per se. When I wired them in series I used 2 batteries to get the right level of brightness. The issue was that when the bulbs "flicker" all they are doing is going from full brightness to low brightness to medium low bright to full bright etc. in what I thought was a random order at a random timing so I hoped to use a bulb on each side of the tank to get 2 different flickers randomly flickering away changing at different times to different brightness's to add a little depth to the effect. What actually happened was both bulbs flickered in unison to the same level of brightness which made the 2nd bulb redundant. Does that make more sense? I didn't explain it very well the first time and I don't think I've made the situation any clearer!

no worries Phil. I jump into geek mode at the first chance I get mate. Makes a lot of sense. Never used them myself as I would build a small timer and operate the LEDs from that so not sure how these operate. Good luck with them though. You are really thinking outside of the box (no pun intended) with this one.

Cheers
Jim

Post by **PhildaFish** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:50 pm

Bagpiper wrote:...I would build a small timer and operate the LEDs from that so not sure how these operate...

Wow! I really should try and learn a bit more about what I'm doing! I have a bulb, 2 strands of copper wire and a battery! Anyone want their house re-wiring?!?!??!