Global Scale Modeller

digger303 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:34 pm Really nice progress there and very well done.

Thanks Digger! Appreciated.

Best,
Nikola

Parker wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:18 am no words.

Thank you Parker. I hope that I don't disappoint.

Best,
Nikola

BigWall wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:47 am It's looking really great!

Thank you Joe!

Best,
Nikola

Tomcat64 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:51 am Great work - nice to see it closed up without too much hassle

Thanks Neil!
Yes, so far so good.

Best,
Nikola

Question guys - did early D's have the entire wheel well in YZC or just the structural elements?

Thanks in advance.

Best,
Nikola

Looks like interior green to me. Reference pics of the real thing all show the same color as far as I can see.

Stokesy44 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:19 am Looks like interior green to me. Reference pics of the real thing all show the same color as far as I can see.

Thanks Stokesy. Revell shows everything YZC.

I found this as well:

Dana Bell
Mustang corrosion control...
Fri Oct 1, 2004 08:33
160.111.69.104

You've got several options here, but unpainted "natural" aluminum with a yellow zinc chromate main spar is the most common for P-51Bs and Cs.

The early Allison-engined Mustangs used the standard prewar corrosion control finishes for the wheel wells and struts: two coats of primer and one coat of aluminized lacquer.

In 1942, before the Merlin-engined Mustangs entered production, North American was granted permission to build Mustangs without interior primers as a means of speeding production. The main wing spars were generally primed with a single coat of yellow zinc chromate to protect the alloy spar itself, to avoid dissimilar metal corrosion in the areas where the spar contacted the inner faces of the aluminum skin, and to reduce static electricity buildup on the aft face of the spar (where the main tanks were located). There is a chance that some early Bs and Cs were delivered with unpainted spars, but I've never found more than a slight possibility of that having occurred.

As part of the cost- and time-savings measures, all other non-cockpit interior areas were left in unpainted aluminum finish. Since there were several grades of aluminum present, this led to corrosion issues on the Mustang, and at some point (I've not been able to pin down a date or place in production) wheel wells began to appear in overall yellow zinc chromate. I know for sure that this happened late in P-51D production. The problems had certainly been identified during B and C production, and fixes were ordered, I just can't find proof that these earlier models actually got the fix.
If, for any reason, a second coat of primer was applied to the wheel well, it would have been green zinc chromate (by that time, the same as Interior Green). I haven't seen evidence of that during WWII, but it could have happened.

As for aluminum lacquer with a yellow spar, that's the one option that didn't happen and actually makes the least sense. The object was to save money and time, so most corrosion control finishes were eliminated. If aluminized lacquer WAS used, it would have been used to overspray the entire well. (Leaving the main spar in yellow in a lacquered well was made more difficult by wartime shortages of both Magic Mask and Parafilm.)

This may be splitting hairs on an OOOOO paint brush, but an aluminized lacquer finish just doesn't look the same as an unpainted aluminum finish, even in scale.
Hope something here helps and makes sense...
Cheers,
Dana

Dana Bell
AM Mustang wells...
Fri Oct 1, 2004 09:11
160.111.69.104

I plan to use an aluminum lacquer effect in my Accurate Miniatures P-51A wells - it's certainly the best documented option. The caution here is that later Allison-engined Mustangs MAY have had unpainted wells with a yellow zinc chromate spar - that documentation probably won't turn up until both of us have completed our models!
Cheers,
Dana


Dana Bell
Not so, sir...
Fri Oct 1, 2004 07:50
160.111.69.104

I'm afraid "current thinking" is wrong on this one - there is no evidence of aluminum lacquered wheel wells with a yellow main spar, while there are plenty of photos of overall yellow P-51 wells.
You've got to ask yourself how the manufacturer would have been able to paint the well aluminum without getting any overspray on the spar, or why anyone should even attempt such a thing.
Dana

Dana Bell
Mustang subassys...
Fri Oct 1, 2004 15:22
160.111.69.104

A good thought, but not backed by photos of the production line. The wheel wells were not actually subassemblies - they were just spaces for the wheels. The top of the well was the inside of the skin, as was the bottom. The back was the spar - everything else was gear-related or a rib.
The spar was painted with yellow zinc chromate prior to construction of the wing. Any other finish was applied during construction.
Cheers,
Dana

Dana Bell
Mustang wells...
Fri Oct 1, 2004 09:03
160.111.69.104

Sorry to leave that post without details - I've added an explanation above. You're right that the effect was the result of the production process. I was distinguishing between unpainted aluminum and aluminum lacquer - two different processes in manufacturing and two different effects in modeling.

Many modelers probably don't care - after all, we all have to paint the plastic "silver" - but with the wide variety of aluminum finish paints now available there'll be a lot of folks looking for the most accurate effect in their painting.

I seem to remember modeling as an easier hobby back in the days when everything got brushed with a coat of Pactra Flat Aluminum - the paint had a grain larger than a silver dollar, but I loved that stuff!
Cheers,
Dana


Dana Bell
Anticorrosive colors and P-51s...
Tue Aug 27 10:19:29 2002
209.244.225.103

There are really three phases of wartime painting of Mustang wheel wells - all related to corrosion control. At first, the metal surfaces were to be painted with one coat of zinc chromate (yellow), one coat of tinted zinc chromate (green), and one coat of aluminized lacquer. This finish appears to have been limited to Allison-engined Mustangs.
Two things happened in 1942. First, a shortage of aluminum ended the use of the aluminized lacquer and forced the reformulation of green zinc chromate. (This led to the use of other colors for wheel wells and struts - for example the Neutral Gray on Lightings and Bronze Green on some P-39s and B-29s.) Second, the AAF allowed North American to produce AT-6s, B-25s, and P-51s without primers to ease production. (Boeing got similar permission for its B-17s.) This is what led to the unpainted wheel well noted below. Throughout this period, the wing spar appears to have consistently carried zinc chromate (yellow) primer. (The primer reduced corrosion where the spar contacted the aluminum sheet and reduced the buildup of static electricity - an important issue with the fuel tanks mounted just aft of the spar.) This combination, as noted below, was common on Bs and Cs, and most Ds and Ks.
By 1944, the AAF was receiving complaints about corrosion in a number of aircraft, including the Mustang. Some unspecified action was required, particularly to reduce dissimilar metal corrosion between structural members and skin panels. Some manufacturers gave the structure a coat of yellow zinc chromate before adding the skin. Some left the structure unprimed and gave the inner surface of the skin a coat of yellow zinc chromate. It's not clear how North American handled the problem, but there is one undated color shot of a P-51D (or K) production line showing the entire wheel well primed in yellow.
This is just a general explanation - it won't help you know what color the wheel wells would be on any particular aircraft. But you can make your own informed decisions based on the date you suspect any particular aircraft (and not just a Mustang) was manufactured.
Cheers,
-Dana
Dana Bell


Green Zinc Chromate...
Tue Aug 27 10:30:45 2002
209.244.225.103

Interior Green is the ANA color name for the zinc chromate green mixed from black and zinc chromate yellow. Up until 1942, the zinc chromate green formula also included aluminum paste or powder - this was dropped due to the wartime aluminum shortage. For about a year, each company did some experimentation trying to match zinc chromate green using different tints (though the Navy also used a red tint). In 1943 the ANA colors came along, and after that, Interior Green quickly became standard.
-Dana


Best,
Nikola

Shorter version:

''By 1944, the AAF was receiving complaints about corrosion in a number of aircraft, including the Mustang. Some unspecified action was required, particularly to reduce dissimilar metal corrosion between structural members and skin panels. Some manufacturers gave the structure a coat of yellow zinc chromate before adding the skin. Some left the structure unprimed and gave the inner surface of the skin a coat of yellow zinc chromate. It's not clear how North American handled the problem, but there is one undated color shot of a P-51D (or K) production line showing the entire wheel well primed in yellow.
This is just a general explanation - it won't help you know what color the wheel wells would be on any particular aircraft. But you can make your own informed decisions based on the date you suspect any particular aircraft (and not just a Mustang) was manufactured.''

''Desert Rat'' is from 1944 so I guess YZC all around. Not 100% sure of course.

Best,
Nikola

He also says:

''As part of the cost- and time-savings measures, all other non-cockpit interior areas were left in unpainted aluminum finish. Since there were several grades of aluminum present, this led to corrosion issues on the Mustang, and at some point (I've not been able to pin down a date or place in production) wheel wells began to appear in overall yellow zinc chromate. I know for sure that this happened late in P-51D production. The problems had certainly been identified during B and C production, and fixes were ordered, I just can't find proof that these earlier models actually got the fix.
If, for any reason, a second coat of primer was applied to the wheel well, it would have been green zinc chromate (by that time, the same as Interior Green). I haven't seen evidence of that during WWII, but it could have happened.

As for aluminum lacquer with a yellow spar, that's the one option that didn't happen and actually makes the least sense. The object was to save money and time, so most corrosion control finishes were eliminated. If aluminized lacquer WAS used, it would have been used to overspray the entire well. (Leaving the main spar in yellow in a lacquered well was made more difficult by wartime shortages of both Magic Mask and Parafilm.)

I'm afraid "current thinking" is wrong on this one - there is no evidence of aluminum lacquered wheel wells with a yellow main spar, while there are plenty of photos of overall yellow P-51 wells.
You've got to ask yourself how the manufacturer would have been able to paint the well aluminum without getting any overspray on the spar, or why anyone should even attempt such a thing.''

Best,
Nikola

In the end, as one fellow modeller put it nicely:

"I think this is a case of - do what you want and are comfortable with.

Who really knows what supplies were at the factory that day - Line Mgr says -"I don't care! Get it out the factory door! There's 25 more behind it!", at the staging depot for updates and corrections (we called it the "hospital" at the auto factory I worked with) - The painter says "Hey boss, I ran out of YZC/ GZC and that one didn't get done - Reply "I don't care get it on the ship! it leaves tonight!", at the front line the crew chief says "Hey Capt. Jones I can't let this one go up, the wheel wells might corrode. Reply - I don't care I'll take here up now and tonight you can paint it with red barn paint for all I care, just fuel it and arm it 'cause I'm on for tomorrow too.".

Best,
Nikola

Well gents, it's finally starting to look like an airplane.

Wings are on, as well as the rudder, horizontal stabilizers, elevators and aileronsWheel well is mostly finished with some touch ups and details to be done, but that's basically that, OOB.

The fit is very good, but I must say that the wings required some persuasion to fit in place since I had to do slight sanding and hard pushing in place (very tight fit). This is as close as I could get it. Some sandpaper will finish the job.

The engineering of the stabilizer connection is interesting as they interlock between each other within the connection to the fuselage (pics below). Basically, there was no aligning required, although I think that the left stabilizer is off by a hairline. Not sure. I couldn't do anything about it though.

Thanks for looking!


Best,
Nikola

Very nice work ! Really nice wheels wells ! so much detail ! keep it up ! nice to follow your build.

GO habs go !

Forgot to ask something... do you like you building jig ? Looks pretty good and I'm looking for one. With your pictures, I was able to go to the internet site and they aren't expensive too... a lot less then others I saw...and shipping is cheap even for me in canada

Garion77 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:27 am Forgot to ask something... do you like you building jig ? Looks pretty good and I'm looking for one. With your pictures, I was able to go to the internet site and they aren't expensive too... a lot less then others I saw...and shipping is cheap even for me in canada

Sorry for butting in here. I had one everything goes together nice and tight, but that also means the parts that slide also are tight and I had to do some sanding in order to get them to run smooth. Also the arms need some sort of soft rubber over them or holding the kit down with a rubber band or such as the kit slides around a bit.

Another one I've somehow missed

Superb cockpit work, following along with interest

Kevthemodeller wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:36 am Another one I've somehow missed

Superb cockpit work, following along with interest

Thank you Kev. Appreciated. Glad that you like it.

Best,
Nikola

Fellow modeller and I apparently got a bad batch since we both have bad shaped rudder (another fellow's kit had no issues) so there was some fixing to be done.

Not perfect but good enough.

Best,
Nikola

Before:


After:

Garion77 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:27 am Forgot to ask something... do you like you building jig ? Looks pretty good and I'm looking for one. With your pictures, I was able to go to the internet site and they aren't expensive too... a lot less then others I saw...and shipping is cheap even for me in canada

Hi Garion,

This is the first model which I am building with it so not enough mileage, but so far so good. Very useful.
The only thing is that assembly can be a little annoying since, like Digger said, the fit is very tight and there was some sanding to be done.

Best,
Nikola

Hi gents,

Very slow progress on this one (as I promised).

Nothing special done but I just wanted to share a small tip about tackling a slight canopy misalignment with those who are yet to build this one. I am generally not happy with the quality of the clear parts. Among some other issues, the windshield is slightly deformed meaning that it is slightly narrower that the fuselage and shorter by a millimetre. The bubble canopy has deformations within the ''plexiglass'' part (I will post some pics later).

I couldn't avoid the gap between the windshield and the cowling but regarding the joint with the fuselage luckily there is a way to keep filling and sanding to a minimum as there is space to insert a piece of toothpick fixed with CA which will not be seen later and keep the windshield at the proper width until glued to the canopy:

Its a beautiful build thus far... I love the idea of using a piece of tooth pick to spread the canopy to fit. Going to make a note for future reference. Do you think if you warmed the plastic gently with piece in place you could remove the piece once it had cooled again? Thinking here of things like helicopter canopies where its all visible

Nikola wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:37 am <snip>at the staging depot for updates and corrections (we called it the "hospital" at the auto factory I worked with) </snip>

Best,
Nikola

Which Auto company did you work with? Within Uncle Henrys global domain that are was simply known as "Rework" - unless in Köln or Saarlouis in which case in the true spirit of UK/Deutch relationships we referred to it as the "Scheissezonen". In Rework you found vehicles that failed EOL quality tests, "special" builds (i.e. the customer wanted something not on the standard build or accessories list) and - in the days of punch cards - such oddities as 3 door Mk 3 Cortinas that somehow made it through every QC station in the MS&BD and PTA plants.

RangerNeil wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:31 pm Its a beautiful build thus far... I love the idea of using a piece of tooth pick to spread the canopy to fit. Going to make a note for future reference. Do you think if you warmed the plastic gently with piece in place you could remove the piece once it had cooled again? Thinking here of things like helicopter canopies where its all visible

Nikola wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:37 am <snip>at the staging depot for updates and corrections (we called it the "hospital" at the auto factory I worked with) </snip>

Best,
Nikola

Which Auto company did you work with? Within Uncle Henrys global domain that are was simply known as "Rework" - unless in Köln or Saarlouis in which case in the true spirit of UK/Deutch relationships we referred to it as the "Scheissezonen". In Rework you found vehicles that failed EOL quality tests, "special" builds (i.e. the customer wanted something not on the standard build or accessories list) and - in the days of punch cards - such oddities as 3 door Mk 3 Cortinas that somehow made it through every QC station in the MS&BD and PTA plants.

Yes a very good simple fix.

She is finally ready for priming!

I had to do some windshield-cowling gap filling, and panel line and tire threads re-scribing, added some rivets where I thought appropriate...

I will go with white Tamiya Liquid Primer or white Mr. Finishing Surfacer 1500, followed by desert yellow shades, my complementary pre-shading using various reds and aluminium where appropriate for future chipping. Then goes the OD base coat. I chose to go with white primer since it will require less coats to achieve good OD coverage without it looking too dark.

Best,
Nikola

Looks good, be good to see it with it's paint on.

Nice! Great idea using the plastic rod to help fill the gap. I'll be watching for the paint to go down.

Hi gents,

White primer and complementary pre-shading done

Hmmm......my mind doesn't grasp perceived outcomes very well. I need to see the next coat of paint. I'm sure it's going to look great,cause I know your good at this I just can't get my head around it yet.

Beautiful work. I love the the use of plastic rod to fill the gap in front of the wind shield.

Well, here is some contradictory information for you:

The painting instructions say that the checkered pattern only goes to the front end of the exhaust stack:


The decal disagrees since it has a cutout to go around the stack past the front end of it:


And if I see it correctly the truth is somewhere in the middle as the pattern only slightly goes past the stack front end:



So, I painted the nose yellow and will either bite the bullet and paint the damn thing or cut out only the red squares of the decal and apply them to the painted yellow (this should make the decal easier to conform to the shape as well. I'll see.

Paint the checkerboard markings ! it's going to look much better !

Neutral Grey base over blue pre-shading on the belly finished. I try to keep the pre-shading effect very subtle initially and then modify where required with post-shading afterwards.

OD finished.
My phone camera and the dining room light bulb just can't capture the subtle differences and tonal variations that well, but they are there, trust me.
Oh well, pics below.

Wow Nikola, just wow. just been reading your build and truly a wonderful job.

DW

Donkeywalloper wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:41 pm Wow Nikola, just wow. just been reading your build and truly a wonderful job.

DW

Thank you very much DW! Appreciated! Very glad that you like the progress so far.

Best,
Nikola

Lovely subtle effects with the pre-shading

The high level of work promises to deliver a truly outstanding subject when finished.

It's looking great Nikola!

And a few more where the effect of complementary pre-shading can be seen slightly better:





Best,
Nikola

The hardest part for me now is judging how much to cover initially knowing that weathering and subsequent coats will affect it. It's just like regular pre-shading only more difficult because if it is with black, no risk of too much of it showing through since it only gives a darker tone of the base color with no hue modulation. Still long way to go until I master this one.

In reality, the red is more subtle but it's very hard to get it right with phone camera and regular room lighting conditions so you guys can see it properly. I'll keep trying to take better shots without all the fancy setup.

Best,
Nikola

This is I think as close to reality as I could get with phone camera. I guess we'll have to wait until proper photos in the end.

I know that I might be boring you but as this is a very slow progress I am posting every little step.

Invasion fuselage stripes done. Next are the wing and horizontal stabilizer white stripes. Then the clear coat and on to the decals. Yay!

Ah, yes, and the red checkers on the yellow...

Not boring at all ! as I'm doing the same thing with my Tamiya's Ki-64 and my last Hellcat

Garion77 wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:28 pm

Garion77 wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:27 pm Not boring at all ! as I'm doing the same thing with my Tamiya's Ki-64 and my last Hellcat. Did you paint the stripes or it was decals ?

I painted them, but with gloss paint, so that's why they maybe look like a decal.

Not boring and always helpful when following a build to learn something new.

digger303 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:12 pm Not boring and always helpful when following a build to learn something new.

Thanks Digger. Appreciated.
I agree. I myself learned a great deal while following others' work.

Best,
Nikola

All invasion stripes done, with some test weathering just for fun at the wing and horizontal stabilizer tips.

Hi gents,

Finally got some free time (when I am not too tired) to continue working on the pony.
My first checkerboard pattern masking and painting done. I screwed up in one place but it's an easy fix.

Next is painting the exhausts, then a gloss coat and then decals.

Best,
Nikola

Nice job !! that is not easy to achieve. Really looking good

Checkering looks awesome!