Tamiya's 1/32 F-4J phantom (marines)

Post by **Johnj** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:49 am

Be gentle with me guy's i bruise easily

Thjs might be a good time to mention that i don't have a dedicated modeling area, i'm pretty much building on my knee which is why i've painted this kit in this way (it's a big aeroplane so i'm trying to keep it as small as i can for as long as i can)
This is the 3rd week i've been working on it so it's coming together quite quickly unlike their 1/32 F-16 which was a mountain of work to complete, and my first aircraft kit. Car's and bikes have more appeal for me.

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Post by **Johnj** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:02 am

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Just dry-fitted the biger panels to see the contrast with the different grey colour's

Post by **chief5437** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:23 pm

Aw man, I wish you'd saved this for the phantom sig, I'm doing the 1/32 j kit.

Nice work, any problems so far?

Post by **Johnj** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:52 pm

chief5437 wrote:Aw man, I wish you'd saved this for the phantom sig, I'm doing the 1/32 j kit.

Nice work, any problems so far?

You'll have to excuse my lack of knowledge there's so much to take in on the forum.
Phantom sig ? Can the moderator's move it to the correct place or could i just start it again as it's only one post ?
I do appologise for all the question's, hopeffully i'll get on top of it before too long.
As for any problems with the kit, not so far.

Post by **Johnj** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:40 pm

Ah, ok. After a bit of detective work sig- special interest group. After reading through that thread i see the builds wont be starting till the start of october. I'm expecting this phantom to be finished around the end of july.
Quite often i can never decide which kit to do next so these sig's might make that decision a bit easier.

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:11 pm

Ya, this was just a dry run!!
What I can see looks great

Post by **Johnj** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:59 pm

Twokidsnosleep wrote:Ya, this was just a dry run!!
What I can see looks great

Thank's. I knew i was taking a chance painting the whole model before assembly but if it worked it would save me a shed load of masking. Holding the air intake in place by hand the joint looks pretty good. With a bit of luck if i have to use filler it will be under where that large decal goes and i wont have to paint it again.
looking at the pictures again it looks like the fusalage colour (tamiya AS-16) is almost the same as the grey plastic the kit come's in.

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Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:28 pm

You have a boat load of decals awaiting you at the end, but that is what makes it look so cool
Love the project, good luck

Post by **Johnj** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:40 pm

I'm dreading it. I think i'll limit myself to 15 or 20 per evening so i dont sicken myself with them.

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While were talking about decals this might be a good time to ask how the experienced aircraft guy's go about adding them.
Am i right in saying you guy's apply a gloss coat all over (the lovely matt finish the tamiya AS spray's give) the aircraft, apply the decals and then a clear matt coat all over to cover the decals ?

why the gloss coat before applying the decals and is the clear matt coat just to get back to the desired matt finish ?

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:16 pm

The gloss will give your decal a nice smooth surface to adhere to and lay flat on...think of trying to get a decal to lie flat on a piece of 120 grit sandpaper, that is what a matt surface looks like microscopically. The gloss fills in those irregularities and lets the decal lay properly. After decals you can matt coat again.
I have definitely cheated and just surface glossed the area where a decal will applied by brushing on Future..but don't tell anyone that secret

Post by **Johnj** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:54 pm

Twokidsnosleep wrote:The gloss will give your decal a nice smooth surface to adhere to and lay flat on...think of trying to get a decal to lie flat on a piece of 120 grit sandpaper, that is what a matt surface looks like microscopically. The gloss fills in those irregularities and lets the decal lay properly. After decals you can matt coat again.
I have definitely cheated and just surface glossed the area where a decal will applied by brushing on Future..but don't tell anyone that secret

That makes sense with a smoother surface for the decal to sit on. The only other aircraft i have built are tamiya's 1/32 F-16 and spitfire and the decals were just applied to the matt paint. Will this come back to haunt me ? What is the downside ?

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Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:12 pm

No, I don't think it will haunt you.
Maybe long term the decal won't adhere as well, may chip, peel or flake or you see the edge start to come up and 'silver' around the decals edge.
The silvering is where the carrier film around the edge of the decal doesn't lay as flat and tight so you see the outline of that film as it's adherence fails
I do try to hit my decals with Future (clear acrylic floor polish) by brush after they have dried on just to seal and protect the surface of the decal. A matt spray after the decals are applied will give the same protection.

Now I am no expert and give you my opinion. You may get a thousand different opinions on this matter from differing viewpoints some very strong.
Always remember there is more than one way to skin a cat

Post by **Johnj** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:31 pm

Thanks scott for the detailed reply i appreciate it. What your saying makes perfect sense but it raises another question, how long do you keep built models ? I usually keep them 10yrs or so and them chuck them in the bin. They're constantly being replaced, i would be over-run if i kept them all !

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:54 pm

Yes, very true.
I have builds from five years since I got back into modelling but will be fortunate enough to have a couple of display storage areas to keep the hordes of models that occupy my stash.

Post by **chief5437** » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:50 pm

I forgot how many decals were on these things, gulp!!

Post by **Johnj** » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:36 am

chief5437 wrote:I forgot how many decals were on these things, gulp!!

I'm inching ever closer to 'D' day (decal day)
I never set out to paint every part before any assembly. I think it happens because i tend to jump around the recommended instruction's to try and keep the airbrush cleaning to a minimum. It's a bummer to paint a 'batch' of part's only to find you've missed one. When i start a new kit, i try and aim to paint all the parts on the two pages i'm looking at, then assemble up to that point. For some reason it never works out. I'd like to hear how other's go about it.

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Post by **chief5437** » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:55 pm

I know what you mean with the airbrush. When you've just finished cleaning it out, and spot something that needs painting the same colour

I'm curious as to why you paint the (large) parts before assembly though? If you need to fill gaps or sand seams don't you end up painting it all over again?

Post by **Johnj** » Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:00 pm

chief5437 wrote:
I'm curious as to why you paint the (large) parts before assembly though? If you need to fill gaps or sand seams don't you end up painting it all over again?

This is only the third aircraft kit i've done (as an adult). The other two were camo scheme's so had to be painted as one unit but i noticed that the colour border on the phantom is the same as the seams on the wings, and knowing how good the fit of the tamiya kit's are, thought it was worth a punt.
Your absolutly right though, i could end up having to paint a fair chunk of it again. We'll find out this weekend !

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:30 am

Looking forward to it, keeping my fingers crossed for you

Post by **Avgas** » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:10 am

I'd like to hear how other's go about it.

I have a look through the instructions and build as much stuff in a certain colour that I can, then spray it. Then realise I've missed a bit...I usually brush paint any stuff I've missed as long as it's not an external piece and not too big. Also I do what you are doing and look for join lines on the kit that match the camo. I'm building a Hellcat with folded wings that would be a nightmare to spray if it was fully assembled so I'm doing it in bits along the joins.

I usually assemble kits (I just build 1/48 a/c) in chunks and then leave final assembly as late as the painting allows. Where I can I also leave the transparencies off until the main body has been built and sprayed, I prefer to do them separately and put them on at the very end of the build.

Post by **Johnj** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:22 am

Thanks guy's for the reply's. It's quite reassuring to read i'm not a million miles from tried and tested methods. From the comment's on this thread and reading elsewhere on here, it seem's cleaning the airbrush is a real chore for most !

Post by **Johnj** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:55 pm

I think i may have just about got away with painting it all before assembly.

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Post by **Johnj** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:02 pm

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Just the decals and weathering of some sort.

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:21 am

Ya, not bad fitment at all. Your weapons look sweet, really good
However, that looks like drywall dust on the counter.....I'll grab my vacuum been doing our whole house this weekend and am a bit loopy for dust

Post by **Johnj** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:46 am

Lol, it's sugar scott. Should have taken the pictures before making the coffee !
Yeah, i'm pleased with the way the ordinance turned out. I just cant bring myself to give the whole thing a coat of gloss over the beautiful finish the tamiya AS paints give. They appear to be more semi gloss than the matt that they claim.

Post by **chief5437** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:15 am

Looks really good! Nice job, looking forward to seeing some decals on her now!

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:35 am

Johnj wrote:Lol, it's sugar scott. Should have taken the pictures before making the coffee !
Yeah, i'm pleased with the way the ordinance turned out. I just cant bring myself to give the whole thing a coat of gloss over the beautiful finish the tamiya AS paints give. They appear to be more semi gloss than the matt that they claim.

At least I thought it was drywall dust and not stuff people snort up their nostrils

Post by **1975GinjaNinja** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:09 am

Sweet looking model, especially like the weapons. Might have to get a kit like this myself, just hope I can give it the same justice.

Post by **Johnj** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:49 am

Ah, thank's guy's. It is turning out better than i thought it would. My confidence is defo up from when i started this.
Made a start on the decals but i think it's going to be a long haul !

Post by **Johnj** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:58 am

Nigel1975 wrote:Sweet looking model, especially like the weapons. Might have to get a kit like this myself, just hope I can give it the same justice.

Thanks for the kind comment nigel. I'm pretty much the same as yourself, i only have a couple of aircraft builds since i was around 15 or so.

Post by **Johnj** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:47 am

I really need to get a better set-up for taking pictures. Well, thats the phantom pretty much finished. I'm not that keen on the heavy weathered look so i'm gonna try the panel line's a go.

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Post by **Johnj** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:41 am

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Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:33 am

Looks good

Maybe try some pics outside on cement ...play with sun vs shade, low angle shots tight to the model that kind of thing.
You would be surprised what even a cell phone camera can get you
From what I can see you have done a great job, just take it that next step and it will blow you away!!

Post by **AridTalons** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:06 am

Nice work! Could use a wash in my opinion.

Post by **Johnj** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:14 pm

Twokidsnosleep wrote:Looks good
Maybe try some pics outside on cement ...play with sun vs shade, low angle shots tight to the model that kind of thing.
You would be surprised what even a cell phone camera can get you
From what I can see you have done a great job, just take it that next step and it will blow you away!!

Thanks scott, i'll need to wait till the weekend to take pictures outside as it's getting too dark by the time i get home from work. The up side of that is it gives me a few more evenings to do the panel lines and a wash of some sort as suggested, but i"m gonna need some help/advice about how to do a wash as it's only tamiya paint that i have at the moment.

Post by **Johnj** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:15 pm

AridTalons wrote:Nice work! Could use a wash in my opinion.

Thanks, i appreciate the kind words

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:15 pm

Johnj wrote:
Twokidsnosleep wrote:Looks good
Maybe try some pics outside on cement ...play with sun vs shade, low angle shots tight to the model that kind of thing.
You would be surprised what even a cell phone camera can get you
From what I can see you have done a great job, just take it that next step and it will blow you away!!
Thanks scott, i'll need to wait till the weekend to take pictures outside as it's getting too dark by the time i get home from work. The up side of that is it gives me a few more evenings to do the panel lines and a wash of some sort as suggested, but i"m gonna need some help/advice about how to do a wash as it's only tamiya paint that i have at the moment.

Absolutely John take some time, plan out the pics and you will surprise yourself
I look forward to seeing them

Post by **chief5437** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:15 pm

Johnj wrote:
Twokidsnosleep wrote:Looks good
Maybe try some pics outside on cement ...play with sun vs shade, low angle shots tight to the model that kind of thing.
You would be surprised what even a cell phone camera can get you
From what I can see you have done a great job, just take it that next step and it will blow you away!!
Thanks scott, i'll need to wait till the weekend to take pictures outside as it's getting too dark by the time i get home from work. The up side of that is it gives me a few more evenings to do the panel lines and a wash of some sort as suggested, but i"m gonna need some help/advice about how to do a wash as it's only tamiya paint that i have at the moment.

Looking good buddy! If you need advice on the wash, have a look through Pauls techniques videos, he covers it there. It might be difficult at this late stage with all the stores on, but still possible. Also depends what your paint finish is like. ie gloss/satin/matt.

Just test a little before you do a wash or the panel lines, I'd hate for you to create problems when you've got this far!

She's a real beauty, nice job!

Post by **Johnj** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:59 pm

chief5437 wrote:
Johnj wrote:
Twokidsnosleep wrote:Looks good
Maybe try some pics outside on cement ...play with sun vs shade, low angle shots tight to the model that kind of thing.
You would be surprised what even a cell phone camera can get you
From what I can see you have done a great job, just take it that next step and it will blow you away!!
Thanks scott, i'll need to wait till the weekend to take pictures outside as it's getting too dark by the time i get home from work. The up side of that is it gives me a few more evenings to do the panel lines and a wash of some sort as suggested, but i"m gonna need some help/advice about how to do a wash as it's only tamiya paint that i have at the moment.

Looking good buddy! If you need advice on the wash, have a look through Pauls techniques videos, he covers it there. It might be difficult at this late stage with all the stores on, but still possible. Also depends what your paint finish is like. ie gloss/satin/matt.

Just test a little before you do a wash or the panel lines, I'd hate for you to create problems when you've got this far!

She's a real beauty, nice job!

Thanks

it's a matt finish, i used the tamiya AS rattle cans. The stores havent been glued yet, they're just pushed on as is the elevator/tailplane as i had half an idea to have a go with the alclad metalics on the rear end. I'm still not sure that this is the right kit to have a go with these untried techniques as i have probably 150 something hrs in the build, plus it was quite a pricey kit at the time.
i will defo take all the advice given and see if i can lift it a notch or two without ruining it. After all, this is the main reason i signed up and got involved on here

Post by **Kevthemodeller** » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:34 pm

I love these aircraft way ahead of their time I read somewhere they were first flown in the late 50's. That's only a little over 10 years after the 262 went operational just look at the advancement

Post by **Johnj** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:33 pm

Think i have ruined this boys. Tried a small corner on the underside and it looked really good but elsewhere it has wicked under the decals. It seems the gloss coat is a must or do the panel lines before the decals go down. I used set and sol and thought they would be down tight enough ! I feel like standing on the thing and chucking it in the bin right now (i wont though)

I'll put up a pic and see what you guy's think

Post by **Johnj** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:41 pm

Kevthemodeller wrote:I love these aircraft way ahead of their time I read somewhere they were first flown in the late 50's. That's only a little over 10 years after the 262 went operational just look at the advancement

I agree kev with possibly the F-16 as the only exeption ! For me the golden era for fighter jets.

Post by **chief5437** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:15 pm

Johnj wrote:Think i have ruined this boys. Tried a small corner on the underside and it looked really good but elsewhere it has wicked under the decals. It seems the gloss coat is a must or do the panel lines before the decals go down. I used set and sol and thought they would be down tight enough ! I feel like standing on the thing and chucking it in the bin right now (i wont though)

I'll put up a pic and see what you guy's think

NOOOOOO!!!

if it's an enamel panel wash you should be able to get most of it off with some thinners, just go careful.

Is the paint acrylic? Should be ok if it is, but still be careful.

I always seal the paint and decals before weathering, if only to protect it when I'm removing my weathering mistakes!

Really hope you can rescue this! Good luck buddy

Post by **Johnj** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:33 pm

chief5437 wrote:
Johnj wrote:Think i have ruined this boys. Tried a small corner on the underside and it looked really good but elsewhere it has wicked under the decals. It seems the gloss coat is a must or do the panel lines before the decals go down. I used set and sol and thought they would be down tight enough ! I feel like standing on the thing and chucking it in the bin right now (i wont though)

I'll put up a pic and see what you guy's think
NOOOOOO!!! if it's an enamel panel wash you should be able to get most of it off with some thinners, just go careful.

Is the paint acrylic? Should be ok if it is, but still be careful.

I always seal the paint and decals before weathering, if only to protect it when I'm removing my weathering mistakes!

Really hope you can rescue this! Good luck buddy

Spooky, I've just been doing exactly that ! Cotton bud and enamel thinners, just light strokes from front to back. I wasnt really bothered as in my head it was ruined and nothing to loose but now the pressure is back on.
I'll take a pic in a minute and post it up.

Post by **Johnj** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:45 pm

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Post by **chief5437** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:52 pm

I think you'll be able to sort that. A bit more off and it'll create some nice streaky grime. Not sure if you like your planes weathered (i do, especially navy jets) but you my not have a choice with this.

Post by **Johnj** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:05 pm

chief5437 wrote:I think you'll be able to sort that. A bit more off and it'll create some nice streaky grime. Not sure if you like your planes weathered (i do, especially navy jets) but you my not have a choice with this.

Yeah, i think my hand has been forced with this now. I'll work away at it and see where it takes me.

They do say best lessons are learnt the hard way. I'm quite confident with the airbrush so that gives me another option as well.
I appreciate the help and advice

Post by **Twokidsnosleep** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:34 am

DON'T PANIC
you can fix it, just don't freak out and do something drastic. Bit more careful wiping and it will come out with whatever solvent you need for that wash.
Might even solvent flush the decal roundel area right out with a syringe to flush under decal which might move a bit and have to be re-oriented
I don't let my washes dry fully nor do I put much on...little by little as you just don't know how things will behave or react
worst thing is to freak out and dump entire thing in turpentine

Post by **1975GinjaNinja** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:06 am

Arrrgghhh. I feel your pain. Similar thing happenef to me on my first build. I will always gloss before a wash from now on but have had yo learn the hard way. I was. A bit luckier in that there weren't as many decals ruined. Painted over effected areas and got some replacement decals to reapply. Haven't risked the wash again yet. There will be a way to save it. But if nothing else it's all learning a process. Painful but you'll be better on the next one.

Post by **Kevthemodeller** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:53 am

Johnj wrote:
Kevthemodeller wrote:I love these aircraft way ahead of their time I read somewhere they were first flown in the late 50's. That's only a little over 10 years after the 262 went operational just look at the advancement
I agree kev with possibly the F-16 as the only exeption ! For me the golden era for fighter jets.

The F15 Eagle first flow in 72! was being designed in mid 60's, I agree an amazing era mate. I do like the earlier 50's jets too these were still fly by the seat of your pants, often by WW2 pilots.