Busted!

[Cymru]

"...i cover one of the simplest yet most hated aspects of modelling and as a bonus, completely destroy the myth that you need to gloss before decals."
Will Pattison



Discuss...

[digger303]

Paul Budzik has a vid as well

[Paul]

I’ve not watched wills video yet, but my last half dozen or so aircraft, including the 1/32 special hobby tempest we’re not glossed for decals or the enamel washes I used on them. Non of my car or bike bike are glossed before decals either and I have no issues at all with silvering. Matt paint can still be smooth

[Stokesy44]

I’ve not watched wills video yet, but my last half dozen or so aircraft, including the 1/32 special hobby tempest we’re not glossed for decals or the enamel washes I used on them. Non of my car or bike bike are glossed before decals either and I have no issues at all with silvering. Matt paint can still be smooth

I'm working my way through the video. It seems the issue isn't really how we apply the decals, its all about the paint finish. Its a great video but Will repeatedly references the 'smooth matt surface' he's working on. That's the Achilles heel for many modellers as their airbrushing skills can lead to matt finishes that are not smooth. I'm certainly one of them. I have a beautiful airbursh, I use decent paints but my finishes, sometimes, are not really good enough in terms of smoothness and I don't know why. Its put me off of building aircraft because I cant see what I'm doing wrong.

Without sounding like a sycophant, would it be useful if you, given your obvious prowess, did a short vid on the do's and dont's for achieving a smooth finish? I'm sure there are vids and tutorials out there but I've seen some of your 'how to' stuff and they've been great to watch and learn from.

[ElCapitan]

I don't think there are any "need to"s in this hobby. It should be a case of doing something a certain way because you've found through experience that it gives YOU the best result. To point out that you don't "need to" do something is simply to state the obvious, surely?

There are a lot of videos claiming to debunk "myths" and trying to be the first to break from the norm, but in truth it's just that the person making the video has found a way that works best for them.

Bottom line - do what works best for you, and enjoy what you're doing.

[schweinhund227]

I gloss and will still gloss to protect my work! I rather take an extra step and get consistent results...
we don't need to reinvent the wheel on this but peoples should stick with what works "for them!" right ?

[Paul]

i think wills point is the question posted about do you need to gloss coat for decals which end up with 100 people you MUST, when in reality you actually don't, I'm not doing anything magical. Just spraying a normal base colour/camo they applying the decals just like normal.

[bfrd]

**Disclaimer** I didn't watch the video. I am thinking about this from a physical and theoretical standpoint only.

I guess I am a little confused by the physics of a smooth matte finish. If you were to look at the physical structure of a gloss coat under a microscope you would find a "mostly" flat surface. All light is reflected linearly and because the surface is flat the reflected light is very uniform. This is what allows us to see reflections in glossy surfaces.

Matte coats are rough by design. When light bounces off of the rough surface it goes in many different directions. Because the light is going in so many directions reflections are so diffuse they basically can't be seen.

It is physically impossible to have a completely smooth matte finish. If it were completely smooth it would be glossy.

Granted we are talking about microscopic differences, but physics are not subject to limitations in scale. If I am not mistaken silvering happens when the decal is not completely flat against the paint. This difference is angle causes light to be reflected differently. Obviously, this is much easier if the decal is placed on a flat surface such as gloss. However, with proper care (and chemicals) it is certainly possible to make them lie flat against a matte surface.

Imagine laying a piece of news paper over a book. It won't readily conform to the surface, but if you bend it you can get a fairly tight fit. Now imagine laying that piece of news paper over a layer of rocks. It will take much more work to bend the paper around all of the nooks and crannies. You will get wrinkles, because you cannot bend a flat object perfectly around a rough surface. If you use water to make the paper wet this becomes easier because the water softens the paper. You are more likely to tear the paper since it doesn't stretch very well. Decals would work in a similar fashion, though I suspect they do stretch at least a little easier. Chemical solvents also add much more control by softening the material and allowing it to conform to the surface. While we are very well aware of this happening at a macroscopic level (panel lines and such), it is also happening at a microscopic level.

I think my final point is that gloss coats should make decaling easier because the surface is more uniform. Decaling over matte surfaces is certainly possible, but cannot be done without more effort.

I am also not trying to start any kind of discord. I just have a background in chemistry and physics, and cannot understand the idea of a smooth matte finish.

[Paul]

Im adding no extra effort, I'm just decaling like normal. I think its a case of try it for your self rather than speculating (thats aimed at everyone btw)

[Stokesy44]

Im adding no extra effort, I'm just decaling like normal. I think its a case of try it for your self rather than speculating (thats aimed at everyone btw)

Completely agree mate. I was simply asking if you had any pointers to avoid a rough finish. PSI, needle size, distance from the kit etc. I'm no luddite, but Lordy I need help sometimes.

[Paul]

Im adding no extra effort, I'm just decaling like normal. I think its a case of try it for your self rather than speculating (thats aimed at everyone btw)

Completely agree mate. I was simply asking if you had any pointers to avoid a rough finish. PSI, needle size, distance from the kit etc. I'm no luddite, but Lordy I need help sometimes.

I spray at about 20 psi, with a .35 needle spraying approx 4" from the model and nicely thinned with Ultimate thinner. I lightly mist the first coat on, continuing around th model till I've fully covered it, so very light thin coats. Hope that helps

[Stokesy44]

I spray at about 20 psi, with a .35 needle spraying approx 4" from the model and nicely thinned with Ultimate thinner. I lightly mist the first coat on, continuing around th model till I've fully covered it, so very light thin coats. Hope that helps

Thanks Paul, I'll certainly try that on my next kit. Much appreciated.

[Kevthemodeller]

I spray at about 20 psi, with a .35 needle spraying approx 4" from the model and nicely thinned with Ultimate thinner. I lightly mist the first coat on, continuing around th model till I've fully covered it, so very light thin coats. Hope that helps

Thanks Paul, I'll certainly try that on my next kit. Much appreciated.

Try looking at these mate:




This is how I use Ammo Mig paint and it works, not with standing the issues I've had with a few of them, the vast majority work very well. It shows the application of light coats.

[Stokesy44]

Try looking at these mate:




This is how I use Ammo Mig paint and it works, not with standing the issues I've had with a few of them, the vast majority work very well. It shows the application of light coats.

Thanks Kev - I think I've spotted at least one thing where I am causing myself problems. I need to learn to cover the whole area being painted with a very light coat, dry it and start over. What I've been doing is filling in smaller areas too quickly, I do layer but I need to slow down, and apply the very thin layer across the whole area I am trying to paint.

[Kevthemodeller]

Thanks Kev - I think I've spotted at least one thing where I am causing myself problems. I need to learn to cover the whole area being painted with a very light coat, dry it and start over. What I've been doing is filling in smaller areas too quickly, I do layer but I need to slow down, and apply the very thin layer across the whole area I am trying to paint.

This it mate it takes longer but it works.

I must say I do like the way Tamiya goes down very easy to apply, quicker too , it's just the smell and those jars I'm going to give them ago and decant the paint into 15ml dropper bottles. I know the norm in the hobby is 17ml but there're pretty much sold out everywhere and for what they are expensive about £5 for 4, I ordered 50 15ml's for £7.50

[Cymru]

**Disclaimer** I didn't watch the video. I am thinking about this from a physical and theoretical standpoint only.

I guess I am a little confused by the physics of a smooth matte finish. If you were to look at the physical structure of a gloss coat under a microscope you would find a "mostly" flat surface. All light is reflected linearly and because the surface is flat the reflected light is very uniform. This is what allows us to see reflections in glossy surfaces.

Matte coats are rough by design. When light bounces off of the rough surface it goes in many different directions. Because the light is going in so many directions reflections are so diffuse they basically can't be seen.

It is physically impossible to have a completely smooth matte finish. If it were completely smooth it would be glossy.

Granted we are talking about microscopic differences, but physics are not subject to limitations in scale. If I am not mistaken silvering happens when the decal is not completely flat against the paint. This difference is angle causes light to be reflected differently. Obviously, this is much easier if the decal is placed on a flat surface such as gloss. However, with proper care (and chemicals) it is certainly possible to make them lie flat against a matte surface.

Imagine laying a piece of news paper over a book. It won't readily conform to the surface, but if you bend it you can get a fairly tight fit. Now imagine laying that piece of news paper over a layer of rocks. It will take much more work to bend the paper around all of the nooks and crannies. You will get wrinkles, because you cannot bend a flat object perfectly around a rough surface. If you use water to make the paper wet this becomes easier because the water softens the paper. You are more likely to tear the paper since it doesn't stretch very well. Decals would work in a similar fashion, though I suspect they do stretch at least a little easier. Chemical solvents also add much more control by softening the material and allowing it to conform to the surface. While we are very well aware of this happening at a macroscopic level (panel lines and such), it is also happening at a microscopic level.

I think my final point is that gloss coats should make decaling easier because the surface is more uniform. Decaling over matte surfaces is certainly possible, but cannot be done without more effort.

I am also not trying to start any kind of discord. I just have a background in chemistry and physics, and cannot understand the idea of a smooth matte finish.

You should have watched the vid first, you would have saved yourself some typing Will does make the point that the matt surface is not really flat, and touches on your points about light. He applies decals on both a gloss and matt surface and his point is that, with proper application, the results are the same. And the majority of silvering is a result of poor methodology not the surface to which the decals are applied. Will is NOT saying don't gloss, only that you don't HAVE too. I have tried it without issue. As others have mentioned, "whatever works for you" but isn't it nice to get out of your comfort zone and learn a new method?

[ForbesHutton]

I'm willing to go the extra step. That will be insurance against any problem with the paint and also give a barrier between the paint and the setting chemicals. For those who forego a clear, more power to you, I just don't trust my luck to that level (not saying you are relying on luck, just that mine can be bad at times).

[Twokidsnosleep]

I forgoe'd a clear and then had to rego an entire paint job on a certain Space Shuttle recently when I tried doing panel lines on flat white paint...not smart
I often spot clear just where a decal will go if I don't want to spray the entire model..seems to work
I agree with the insurance and protection aspects of a clear