Use of Hakenkreuz & Other Emotive markings on model kits

[RangerNeil]

[Mod]Topic split out from Antonowski's Stuka build[/mod]

The Hakenkreuz is not on the tail plane - your choice or did it not come with the decals??

Apologies if I'm a bit anal over this - but it was a part of history, bad as well as good,
and should not be "air brushed" out ( no pun intended) for whatever reason....

[Tomcat64]

The Hakenkreuz is not on the tail plane - your choice or did it not come with the decals??

Apologies if I'm a bit anal over this - but it was a part of history, bad as well as good,
and should not be "air brushed" out ( no pun intended) for whatever reason....

I don't think any aircraft kits come with them any more (although some manufacturers do include multipart decals to get around the regulations).

You generally have to source them via after market decal sheets if you want to include them.

[edit]Interestingly I've just seen a preview of the Border Models 1/35 Stuka and it includes the marking on the decal sheet but not on the paint plans

[RangerNeil]

The Hakenkreuz is not on the tail plane - your choice or did it not come with the decals??

Apologies if I'm a bit anal over this - but it was a part of history, bad as well as good,
and should not be "air brushed" out ( no pun intended) for whatever reason....

I don't think any aircraft kits come with them any more (although some manufacturers do include multipart decals to get around the regulations).

You generally have to source them via after market decal sheets if you want to include them.

[edit]Interestingly I've just seen a preview of the Border Models 1/35 Stuka and it includes the marking on the decal sheet but not on the paint plans

Got to admit I find that "censorship " annoying! History isn't there to be wiped because someone might get offended but to learn from. Those that forget history have a nasty habit of repeating it and that's one part of history no sane person wants repeated. At least, as you say, they can be obtained aftermarket. Interesting that Border include the decals but don't show placement - although I guess if you are building a 1/35 scale Stuka you have a good idea where they go.

[antonowski]

The Hakenkreuz is not on the tail plane - your choice or did it not come with the decals??

Apologies if I'm a bit anal over this - but it was a part of history, bad as well as good,
and should not be "air brushed" out ( no pun intended) for whatever reason....

No it's an interesting question and I'm sure many people have different opinions on it. (The decals didn't come with the plane either and it's something I've discussed with friends at length - so here's my view on it)

Personally, there are 2 identities I see when I look at luftwaffe aircraft from WW2. I see the German insignia that denotes the nationality of the aircraft and then the political symbol that's associated with the attrocities and ideologies of the time. That symbol is still being used today by groups to symbolise racism, nazism, violence and hatred.

For me personally I'm building these aircraft for aesthetic reasons, not pure historical accuracy. I'd just rather not have that symbol around my house. Not to forget or deny it.

[cor]

Good call.

[Tomcat64]

The Hakenkreuz is not on the tail plane - your choice or did it not come with the decals??

Apologies if I'm a bit anal over this - but it was a part of history, bad as well as good,
and should not be "air brushed" out ( no pun intended) for whatever reason....

No it's an interesting question and I'm sure many people have different opinions on it. (The decals didn't come with the plane either and it's something I've discussed with friends at length - so here's my view on it)

Personally, there are 2 identities I see when I look at luftwaffe aircraft from WW2. I see the German insignia that denotes the nationality of the aircraft and then the political symbol that's associated with the attrocities and ideologies of the time. That symbol is still being used today by groups to symbolise racism, nazism, violence and hatred.

For me personally I'm building these aircraft for aesthetic reasons, not pure historical accuracy. I'd just rather not have that symbol around my house. Not to forget or deny it.

Your kit, your house, your choice

[Garion77]

The Hakenkreuz is not on the tail plane - your choice or did it not come with the decals??

Apologies if I'm a bit anal over this - but it was a part of history, bad as well as good,
and should not be "air brushed" out ( no pun intended) for whatever reason....

I don't think any aircraft kits come with them any more (although some manufacturers do include multipart decals to get around the regulations).

You generally have to source them via after market decal sheets if you want to include them.

[edit]Interestingly I've just seen a preview of the Border Models 1/35 Stuka and it includes the marking on the decal sheet but not on the paint plans

Got to admit I find that "censorship " annoying! History isn't there to be wiped because someone might get offended but to learn from. Those that forget history have a nasty habit of repeating it and that's one part of history no sane person wants repeated. At least, as you say, they can be obtained aftermarket. Interesting that Border include the decals but don't show placement - although I guess if you are building a 1/35 scale Stuka you have a good idea where they go.

I think it depends where you live. Because here (in Canada), I always get them. At least with the kits I've got from Airfix,Eduard and ICM for German planes. The only one I didn't have it was an old Hasegawa kit when I got back in the hobby about 7 years ago (but the kit was older)

[RangerNeil]

No it's an interesting question and I'm sure many people have different opinions on it. (The decals didn't come with the plane either and it's something I've discussed with friends at length - so here's my view on it)

Personally, there are 2 identities I see when I look at luftwaffe aircraft from WW2. I see the German insignia that denotes the nationality of the aircraft and then the political symbol that's associated with the attrocities and ideologies of the time. That symbol is still being used today by groups to symbolise racism, nazism, violence and hatred.

For me personally I'm building these aircraft for aesthetic reasons, not pure historical accuracy. I'd just rather not have that symbol around my house. Not to forget or deny it.

Fair & understandable comment!! I guess for me - probably being that much older - the historical outweighs the political. A case of "that is how it was - that is how it should be". I know aviation museums in the UK with WW2 German aircraft in them have been pressured into removing the Hakenkreuz from their exhibits. So far the curators have shared my view that if its removed then people in time will forget the evil associated with it. But I can fully understand not wanting it personally.
I tend to feel the same way about SS insignia which takes the evil to whole new levels - when building German armour any marking scheme for an SS Panzer unit goes in the bin. Partly I guess because the 12th SS Panzer division were responsible for my father learning to swim the hard way at a place called Arnhem.. Then being one of the first British troops into a Kz...

[Tomcat64]

I've split this topic out from Antonowski's Stuka build to save cluttering that up and derailing it.

This can obviously be an emotive subject so please keep the discussion to the same civil standards that have been used so far

[antonowski]

Don't get me wrong I don't want to deny history or shoo it away like it shouldn't be discussed. On the contrary, I believe that aircraft/uniforms/etc etc should retain all of their original symbolism and regalia. That, I think, is crucial for bringing discussion and education to those that go to the museums and learn the various stories that go with it all. I'll certainly never shy away from discussion with anyone about it (hence thus thread, and I agree with everything being said here too). History should be preserved and not censored....I just don't particularly fancy that particular symbol dotted around the house when the inlaws or the kid's friends pop over .

If I were to do a commission or piece for a competition, I'd absolutely include any necessary symbols/regalia as there's a usefulness there for it then.

Hope I'm not coming across holier than thou, definitely not my intention.

Cheers,
Ant

[tg18083]

I do not build fascist models. I do not open threads with titles that are easily identified as being of/about fascist models.

This is a recent stand I've taken, just after white supremacists rallied in Charlottesville, VA, USA, chanting "Jews will not replace us", and driving cars murderously through crowds of counter protestors. I'll just say world wide trends worry me.

My model shelf has 1/48 hellcats, wildcats, avengers, corsairs, lightnings, spitfires, and swordfish. I know who the 'good guys' were, and, I only build the 'good guys'.

I have never built figures, but, have dreamt of a series of vignettes of sons of democracy bayonetting white supremacists/fascists. Imaging a scale representation of freeze frames of the most intense scenes of 'Glory', 'Band of Brothers', and 'Saving Private Ryan'.

Do with this what you will.

[Tomcat64]

Thanks for your input @tg18083.

As I mentioned previously this is a highly emotive subject and I know of several model builders who don't build particular subjects due to similarly held views.

[Tomcat64]

Hope I'm not coming across holier than thou, definitely not my intention.

Not at all - your points are all valid and well stated.

[Twokidsnosleep]

Hot topic
Very hot topic

[RangerNeil]

Hope I'm not coming across holier than thou, definitely not my intention.

Cheers,
Ant

Absolutely not sir - you make a valid point. Your house, your build, your rules as it were.
I can understand where you are coming from as the Hakenkreuz is probably, together with the SS runes, THE symbol most associated with the true evil of the 3rd Reich. I myself hold to the view that historical items such as preserved aircraft should retain that symbol for the education of future generations but for the kits we build it should be OUR decision whether to add that insignia or not. To me it's offensive when kit manufacturers take that decision out of our hands by deleting the insignia from the decal sheets unasked.

[aur0ra145]

I'll put the Hakenkreuz on historically accurate models. I'll leave them off my sci-fi and what-if stuff (namely my Panzer IV inspired Star Wars AT-ST walker.)

The discussion on destruction of artifacts in a museum collection due to outside pressure is a fascinating one. The example here being the aircraft and what not. I'm solidly on the, do not destroy artifacts side.

Some other interesting arguments I've heard are for shipwrecks. Several of the shipwreck diving museums will willfully destroy the artifact they recover to create a replica. It's cheaper, but also willfully destroying an artifact that could be preserved. Meanwhile, you have places like the Hampton Roads Mariners Museum doing a conservation of the USS Monitor's turret and cannons, a process that will take nearly 25 years!

Link about the process for those interested. https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/news/aug16 ... nitor.html

Another interesting argument is about firearms in museums. Should they be deactivated, thus, destroying part of the artifact or not? Most curators seem to agree that disabling or altering the artifact in any way should be avoided at all costs. Others think that the scene from Demolition Man is a valid threat, and museums should prepare for it by destroying the item.

Lastly, dinosaur bones! Does it matter if they're real fossils? Should real fossils ever be on public display when you can now 3d image, and 3d print off a bone?

My wife used to work at a very popular museum in the USA and a lot of these things come up. I found the arguments fascinating on either side of the conversation.