Modelling subjects - are any off limits?

[Stokesy44]

We live in an age of cancel culture where free speech and common sense is consistently under attack. People rush to be woke to protect themselves and desperately virtue signal when questioned (the modern day version of informing on your neighbors).

Many people seek to be offended as a form of gratification. I am in the Ricky Gervais camp on this issue, he doesn't care who he offends and simply states 'being offended doesn't make you right'.

People are wary of the left and far left, some seeing the left as more of a threat today than the right!

Mercifully, the modelling community seems to sail serenely on with very little being said that could be regarded as a result of the rise of any of the above - and long may it continue.

My question is this though - in the modelling world (or just on this forum), are any subjects or opinions off limits?

This is my personal take and I dont seek to inhibit or have my views become policy. In a free society we move forward by talking out our issues, not seeking to cancel those who disagree with us. So here we go.

Trans rights in public spaces - Oops, my bad, wrong forum

But seriously

Use of the Swastika - I can understand it being banned, you cant do it selectively because those who wish to see it renewed would find a way around it. So no references on kit boxes or images on FB is fine with me. On the actual kit though, I think they should be shown for historical accuracy and because they are no more evocative of that evil regime than the aircraft, ship or tank you are building and the the other markings on it.

I did see a post once (not on here), it was a picture of a tank model except the background to the tank was a swastika flag, not a photo, but an actual flag draped as the background. I thought this was massively out of order and complained, along with others, and it was taken down. If it looks like it and smells like it, you call it what it is.

Gore - I'm not a fan. I've seen dioramas showing gore, a particular one was of a destroyed tank. At then end of the day you are showing dead soldiers, everyone of which was a father, brother, son or husband to someone. It becomes too personal at that point for me.

Axis or current period enemy subjects - some refuse to build German or Japanese vehicles, I can see their point but I am ok with all subjects save for modern day terrorist subjects. I'm not sure where I stand on Russian subjects given the current headlines but that is a contradiction for me as I am happy to build German historical subjects. I lack consistency it would appear.

I dont build Japanese subjects, mostly because they don't interest me but also, if I am honest, because of the way they conducted themselves. From the invasion of China right up until the end of the war they behaved appallingly - and not in isolated incidents. But then where does that leave me with Germans and the Holocaust? This is a very nuanced subject and even as I write, it gets more detailed.

Historical characters - I will not build vehicles specific to an individual if that individual was in the SS nor will I build historical figures if they were in the SS and / or were convicted of War crimes. Michael Wittman seems to be a popular subject but to me he was an SS fanatic who thoroughly deserved his end in Normandy and I have no desire to build anything in remembrance of him. Maybe my view is too simplistic because I am happy to show German soldiers in vehicles and I have a 1/16 Rommel that goes with my PZ1. There is a lot of myth around Rommel but he did conduct himself properly and did much to ensure the rules of war were followed. His involvement or otherwise in the July 44 plot is largely conjecture so it doesn't shape my opinion either way.

Fantasy figures that show female nudity - to be honest I couldn't give a toss, provided there are no overtones of duress.

Those are my views and mine alone, and I would not seek to impose them. However:

[digger303]

Ok a evocative subject or as some would say a tossing a hand grenade.

Yes political correctness has taken several steps too far in many walks of life.

I agree the Swastika and the use of should be relegated to history and the depiction of.

I don't like gore much at all even in horror movies. I'd rather not watch them and it's the same with modelling. Now I know people got killed horribly, but that's not what interests me. You can not know anything of war and not realise people died, but it doesn't have to be in your face.

I'm happy to model what ever race or war as long as it's not in the vein of glorify the ideology behind it. It is possible to find on all sides war crimes and bad treatment of prisoners only time has made it more palatable to model some factions. Although during The Pacific war many horrible examples of war crimes were committed including to my own country men from my home town. There is a case of a nurse who was captured used in one of the army brothels and it affected her mind so much so that after she was bought back for many years she would lose it. Tearing her clothes off and wander down the street stark naked. Yet I will build Japanese subjects time has made it easier yet I wouldn't have done in 1946 ( If I was around ). Moving onto the Ukrainian conflict I still build Russian stuff, but I'm more inclined if I'm to do a diorama to make it a subject favourable to the Ukrainians.
I'm not buying any kits from retailers that come from Russian sources....thats my red line. I will buy pre loved kits from a individual...maybe I'm splitting hairs

I generally don't do individuals, but my sentiment concurs with yours.

Nudity that's the upper body area to me is fine. I have seen figures that are fully nude depicting sexual acts and while I find it interesting I think it's not something to be shared on a public forum.

[MrBowcat]

On the subject of whether or not to build Japanese WW2 pieces because of the atrocities committed by the East, I wonder if anyone considers whether they should build US WW2 pieces because of the atrocity (from the Japanese perspective) of dropping Atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Personally I build what I want to build, the past is in the past.

[Stokesy44]

On the subject of whether or not to build Japanese WW2 pieces because of the atrocities committed by the East, I wonder if anyone considers whether they should build US WW2 pieces because of the atrocity (from the Japanese perspective) of dropping Atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Personally I build what I want to build, the past is in the past.

Interesting point, at the end of the day you go with your gut and what you're happy with. And you're right re the subject of atrocities and who did what and why. For example, we celebrate the Dambusters but attacking an enemy's water supply is now declared as a war crime. A complex issue to be sure!

[Stokesy44]

Ok a evocative subject or as some would say a tossing a hand grenade.

Yes political correctness has taken several steps too far in many walks of life.

I agree the Swastika and the use of should be relegated to history and the depiction of.

I don't like gore much at all even in horror movies. I'd rather not watch them and it's the same with modelling. Now I know people got killed horribly, but that's not what interests me. You can not know anything of war and not realise people died, but it doesn't have to be in your face.

I'm happy to model what ever race or war as long as it's not in the vein of glorify the ideology behind it. It is possible to find on all sides war crimes and bad treatment of prisoners only time has made it more palatable to model some factions. Although during The Pacific war many horrible examples of war crimes were committed including to my own country men from my home town. There is a case of a nurse who was captured used in one of the army brothels and it affected her mind so much so that after she was bought back for many years she would lose it. Tearing her clothes off and wander down the street stark naked. Yet I will build Japanese subjects time has made it easier yet I wouldn't have done in 1946 ( If I was around ). Moving onto the Ukrainian conflict I still build Russian stuff, but I'm more inclined if I'm to do a diorama to make it a subject favourable to the Ukrainians.
I'm not buying any kits from retailers that come from Russian sources....thats my red line. I will buy pre loved kits from a individual...maybe I'm splitting hairs

I generally don't do individuals, but my sentiment concurs with yours.

Nudity that's the upper body area to me is fine. I have seen figures that are fully nude depicting sexual acts and while I find it interesting I think it's not something to be shared on a public forum.

Grenade tossing was not my intent, rather it was to see how other people feel and how they view history

[RangerNeil]

Cancel culture - that really is an evocative topic. Possibly all the more so in the UK following the result of the General election and the mass labelling of anyone not toeing the party line as "Far Right Thugs".
However - on the topics discussed my personal views are as follows:

Swastikas
WW2 german aircraft carried the Hakenkreuz/swastika on their tail planes. For myself if I build a model of that era I apply the markings of that era. I can understand other people may have different views and choose not - thats their perogative. I do get miffed, though, when places like Facebook insist/demand that particular marking be obscured in case it offends someone. So I guess that puts me in the same camp as Mr Gervais here.
As a side note - one of my other hobbies is Living History and one of the larger groups that attend shows represents a waffen SS Panzer unit in terms of uniform and equipment, not in terms of ideology. At one event two strangers turned up in the black uniform of the Totenkopfverbande complete with the swastika armbands. They were taken aside and had it explained to them, fairly forcefully, the uniform and ideology were 100% unacceptable before being handed over to security for removal. Somethings are acceptable as the face of history - others, like the real flag with the tank model, most certainly are not.

Gore
I'm with the OP on this one. Walking wounded, survivors of mediaeval battles, wounded being carried from a crashed plane, taken from the line to an aid station, are acceptable.
Corpses are not.
Historically, as said, they would have been someones husband, son, father. For those of us cursed to have seen the reality no one in their right mind wants to unbury those memories.

Axis/current enemy
History is history and should be learnt from else we are doomed to repeat it. I have no issues with either imperial/3rd Reich German equipment and troops, Japanese equipment but draw the line at troops - had an uncle who was a PoW. Cold war was "my" era and the current range of Rus-Fed equipment traces itself back to the Soviet era. I'd proably draw the line at anything marked as part of the Ukranian invasion - unless it was Ukranian.

Specific figures
I don't do specific figures - primarily because I don't think I have the skills to produce a reasonably accurate representation. If I could then I think examples like Wittman and his ilk would be off-limits for the reasons others give.

Fantasy figures/nudity
The subject doesn't bother me - but the latter part doesn't interest me either so I don't bother. Fantasy figures, though, I'd have a stab at if one took my fancy.

End of the day my view is everyone has their own views on things and as long as we agree to disagree everyone is happy.

[smokeriderdon]

Swastikas on models. Absolutely. They were there, no getting around it. I avoid most German subjects (but have done a Stuka because its just a wicked cool plane) because of the fact that they were who they were. Japanese...$%^&* them. They made the Germans look like school children. When you had SS members complaining about the actions of the Japanese, that should tell you all you need to know. And quite frankly, this whole thing now of people saying the bombing of Dresden or the nukes are war crimes. Thats just more woke bullshibby IMO.

Gore. No problem with it. I might do a subject with it, might not. Would depend on what it is and my mood. LOL

The rebel flag. Yes, when I do a General Lee I will put it on there simply because it was there. Plain and simple. And if you do a civil war thing, then yes, it would be appropriate. Aside from that, I look at as another enemy flag and would likely not model anything that was solely confederate.

As for current, there are a few Russian subjects I will do, again because they are neat. And I did do the one IL2. But the same holds true here as for the WWII stuff. Chinese, I will flat out not do. Modern Japanese, meh, not anything of huge interest there. Same for modern German aside from the occasional Tornado. My primary focus is and always will be U.S stuff.

Nudity, not a problem. Ive done one figure nude and likely will do more.

[barryf1fan]

This was an interesting read earlier this afternoon for me... I read, and re-read the OG post a couple of times. And, while I certainly have my "O"pinions about cancel culture and the so-called 'left', I will refrain from going down that varied path.

Will say, however, that I see no problem in doing period specific models. I agree with @MrBowcat on this, that the past is in the past - it's not to be forgotten, mind you, but it is in the past. History is to be studied and learned, not celebrated, per se, but definitely known and understood. I, personally, have zero issue with someone doing a period specific model, and think that is something to be accepted - even if the time it's from isn't accepted.

[Stokesy44]

Cancel culture - that really is an evocative topic. Possibly all the more so in the UK following the result of the General election and the mass labelling of anyone not toeing the party line as "Far Right Thugs".
However - on the topics discussed my personal views are as follows:

Swastikas
WW2 german aircraft carried the Hakenkreuz/swastika on their tail planes. For myself if I build a model of that era I apply the markings of that era. I can understand other people may have different views and choose not - thats their perogative. I do get miffed, though, when places like Facebook insist/demand that particular marking be obscured in case it offends someone. So I guess that puts me in the same camp as Mr Gervais here.
As a side note - one of my other hobbies is Living History and one of the larger groups that attend shows represents a waffen SS Panzer unit in terms of uniform and equipment, not in terms of ideology. At one event two strangers turned up in the black uniform of the Totenkopfverbande complete with the swastika armbands. They were taken aside and had it explained to them, fairly forcefully, the uniform and ideology were 100% unacceptable before being handed over to security for removal. Somethings are acceptable as the face of history - others, like the real flag with the tank model, most certainly are not.

Gore
I'm with the OP on this one. Walking wounded, survivors of mediaeval battles, wounded being carried from a crashed plane, taken from the line to an aid station, are acceptable.
Corpses are not.
Historically, as said, they would have been someones husband, son, father. For those of us cursed to have seen the reality no one in their right mind wants to unbury those memories.

Axis/current enemy
History is history and should be learnt from else we are doomed to repeat it. I have no issues with either imperial/3rd Reich German equipment and troops, Japanese equipment but draw the line at troops - had an uncle who was a PoW. Cold war was "my" era and the current range of Rus-Fed equipment traces itself back to the Soviet era. I'd proably draw the line at anything marked as part of the Ukranian invasion - unless it was Ukranian.

Specific figures
I don't do specific figures - primarily because I don't think I have the skills to produce a reasonably accurate representation. If I could then I think examples like Wittman and his ilk would be off-limits for the reasons others give.

Fantasy figures/nudity
The subject doesn't bother me - but the latter part doesn't interest me either so I don't bother. Fantasy figures, though, I'd have a stab at if one took my fancy.

End of the day my view is everyone has their own views on things and as long as we agree to disagree everyone is happy.

Great response. Agreeing to disagree? A very much endangered viewpoint in the current climate where every disagreement ends in a judgement where one party is 'destroyed' by the other as opposed to allowing someone their point of view.

[Stokesy44]

This was an interesting read earlier this afternoon for me... I read, and re-read the OG post a couple of times. And, while I certainly have my "O"pinions about cancel culture and the so-called 'left', I will refrain from going down that varied path.

Will say, however, that I see no problem in doing period specific models. I agree with @MrBowcat on this, that the past is in the past - it's not to be forgotten, mind you, but it is in the past. History is to be studied and learned, not celebrated, per se, but definitely known and understood. I, personally, have zero issue with someone doing a period specific model, and think that is something to be accepted - even if the time it's from isn't accepted.

Thanks for posting mate. My original intent was to see what others think about the nuances of what we build or dont build. I find other people's opinions fascinating as it makes me examine my own opinions and make sure I'm not drifting into dogma or just being downright unreasonable

A reasoned and well mannered discussion on the internet - who'd have though it!

[Stokesy44]

Swastikas on models. Absolutely. They were there, no getting around it. I avoid most German subjects (but have done a Stuka because its just a wicked cool plane) because of the fact that they were who they were. Japanese...$%^&* them. They made the Germans look like school children. When you had SS members complaining about the actions of the Japanese, that should tell you all you need to know. And quite frankly, this whole thing now of people saying the bombing of Dresden or the nukes are war crimes. Thats just more woke bullshibby IMO.

Gore. No problem with it. I might do a subject with it, might not. Would depend on what it is and my mood. LOL

The rebel flag. Yes, when I do a General Lee I will put it on there simply because it was there. Plain and simple. And if you do a civil war thing, then yes, it would be appropriate. Aside from that, I look at as another enemy flag and would likely not model anything that was solely confederate.

As for current, there are a few Russian subjects I will do, again because they are neat. And I did do the one IL2. But the same holds true here as for the WWII stuff. Chinese, I will flat out not do. Modern Japanese, meh, not anything of huge interest there. Same for modern German aside from the occasional Tornado. My primary focus is and always will be U.S stuff.

Nudity, not a problem. Ive done one figure nude and likely will do more.

Great to hear an American's view on the confederate flag issue and completely agree. Its fine on a model of the General Lee but best not to fly it in the front yard!

[smokeriderdon]

Swastikas on models. Absolutely. They were there, no getting around it. I avoid most German subjects (but have done a Stuka because its just a wicked cool plane) because of the fact that they were who they were. Japanese...$%^&* them. They made the Germans look like school children. When you had SS members complaining about the actions of the Japanese, that should tell you all you need to know. And quite frankly, this whole thing now of people saying the bombing of Dresden or the nukes are war crimes. Thats just more woke bullshibby IMO.

Gore. No problem with it. I might do a subject with it, might not. Would depend on what it is and my mood. LOL

The rebel flag. Yes, when I do a General Lee I will put it on there simply because it was there. Plain and simple. And if you do a civil war thing, then yes, it would be appropriate. Aside from that, I look at as another enemy flag and would likely not model anything that was solely confederate.

As for current, there are a few Russian subjects I will do, again because they are neat. And I did do the one IL2. But the same holds true here as for the WWII stuff. Chinese, I will flat out not do. Modern Japanese, meh, not anything of huge interest there. Same for modern German aside from the occasional Tornado. My primary focus is and always will be U.S stuff.

Nudity, not a problem. Ive done one figure nude and likely will do more.

Great to hear an American's view on the confederate flag issue and completely agree. Its fine on a model of the General Lee but best not to fly it in the front yard!

Well, believe me there are plenty who label it heritage or some such nonsense. As I am sure you can tell from my response, I am FAR from a leftard, so I dont have an issue with it outside of the simple fact that the confederacy WAS an enemy country. I would NOT have been voting for reconciliation. LOL

[cor]

Its all 'interesting' this woke pc bs. I think that as this is my hobby I will build what I want for my own enjoyment. Yes a little sensitivity in showing others trigger specific subjects wont go astray. Almost everything ever produced as a model kit can be construed as insensitive to someone out there in some way, sure some more than others, and just because someone has an issue with what I do does not mean that my wish to express my own interest is invalid. I find the whole woke thing as 'I'm right/awake and therefore you are wrong' as so limited and opinionated thinking that whenever someome starts on about something my ears just turn off.

[Stokesy44]

Its all 'interesting' this woke pc bs. I think that as this is my hobby I will build what I want for my own enjoyment. Yes a little sensitivity in showing others trigger specific subjects wont go astray. Almost everything ever produced as a model kit can be construed as insensitive to someone out there in some way, sure some more than others, and just because someone has an issue with what I do does not mean that my wish to express my own interest is invalid. I find the whole woke thing as 'I'm right/awake and therefore you are wrong' as so limited and opinionated thinking that whenever someome starts on about something my ears just turn off.

Well said, we are all entitled to our opinions but they're just that - opinions. When we seek to enforce those on other people is when we get the situation we've got today. Two quotes come to mind.

Opinions are like a**holes, everybody's got one - Harry Callahan (Dirty Harry)

Being offended doesn't make you right - Ricky Gervais

[Steve64]

Hi folks,

I just came across this thread, and found it a really interesting subject. It is one that I've grappled with over the years. I'd rather have a world without all the death and destruction, but on the other hand there's a joy to building military models that I don't get from any another pastime.

My feeling is that historical accuracy is more important than individual sensibilities for all the reasons pointed out here. I also have some personal boundaries that I don't exceed because going past them compromises my values and leaves me feeling uncomfortable. In short, I don't build anything I can't defend. Here are some of the things that don't sit right with me and the reasons for them.

1. Anything from current wars. I'm avoiding subjects from Ukraine or Gaza/Lebanon/Israel, because the suffering is too present. The same goes for all the other conflicts around the world.

2. Subjects involving torture, interrogation or war crimes. Not that these are big areas for kit manufacturers and builders, but you do see some figures, and my broad definition includes, for example, SS vehicles. I just don't want to have fun with these subjects.

3. Anything that I don't want to show my teenage daughters, so sexually explicit stuff (not sure that there is any but some female figures are borderline fetish objects), brutality or gore. Yes, of course I know the last two are historically real, and I may enjoy the first, but I live in a family home and I draw the personal line there.

So, fundamentally, I build what I enjoy, and what sits right with me. That can throw up contradictions and dilemmas, but then that's life.

Finally, on the subject of people judging what we do - whether they are from the left or right of the political spectrum - unfortunately it seems to be a very big part of human existence that is amplified by social media. Unless we hide our models, someone will always see them and judge, and not always on the quality of the build or paint job. We may sense that our values are judged and that feels very personal. OK then, let them, and if they say something we disagree with, start a conversation and persuade. It may fail but it's better to try. That's why I build subjects that I can talk about from the perspective of my values; people may attack, but I feel comfortable in my defence, and maybe they will change my view - that's a posibility too. In reality most of the comments I get come from fellow modellers and focus on things like kit accuracy, build details and weathering - the most controversial subjects in our hobby!

Crikey, that was longer than I thought. Anyhow, I hope it helps and keeps the discussion going. I for one feel it's a discussion worth having, so thanks for starting it.

Happy modelling chaps.

[tg18083]

I have my own standards, but, try not to force them on others. I do not like to waste my limited talents on extreme nationalists, fascists and nazis. But - would not judge anyone who builds something I wouldn't. Go forth and model!!

[NoelSmith]

Gore for the sake of it like a figure holding a severed head with blood dripping from it or other injuries depicting carnage.

Figures that are just plain pornographic. Not talking about girlie figures in skimpy lingerie but at one show I can remember seeing a large scale female figure depicting the vaginal area in great detail. Also figures depicting sexual or depraved activity like torture.

It would appear that those depictions cross the line as far as good taste is concerned when placed on public display at a scale model show. What people make models of is of course up to themselves in private.

Swastikas, Confederate Flags etc. I am perfectly ok with on models for the sake of historical or genuine accuracy of the subject.

Largely it is a matter of being sensible and having respect for others, particularly when displaying models at shows where children may be visiting with their parents.

[DRUMS01]

WOW!... I have enjoyed reading the replies very much. I tend to agree with most everything, much like everyone else. Obviously, everyone has a standard, but everyones standards are not identical. I think this would be a very sad and boring hobby and world for that matter if we all had the same exact viewpoint.

With that said, Most all of our thoughts are formed on our upbringing, media influence, family history, values, and beliefs. The great thing with this hobby is that it allows all of us to express our own level or standards in modeling that spark our interest, while we hope it it not too offensive for others.

While significant events in history have special meaning and offense; like the WW2 events surrounding the holocaust, Pearl Harbor, the atomic bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, The Bataan Death March, etc. We can even go back through any period and find something offensive or special, depending on the builder and viewers perspective. The point of our discussions should be that we CAN discuss these subjects with reverence, respect, anguish, passion, or what-ever word you want to place on it, and still do so hopefully respecting one another viewpoints. Unlike gross politics, religion agitation or retribution, human cleansing, and obvious porn, these should obviously be off limits to modeling.

Should I not build models of the Vietnam era , Stalingrad, Desert Storm or some other conflict simply because friends and relatives of mine were hurt or killed during those conflicts? If so, that would be my choice and mine alone, but it should never impact anyone else decision to build those subjects.

Just because I do not model certain subjects does not mean I don't appreciate the model and abilities of the modeler in that subject. To the contrary, I sometimes appreciate things more when I see a modeler stepping into an areas that I do not build and pulling it off with great finesse.

In the end I personally believe anyone can build anything that anyone could at some time consider offensive. Our world views make this almost certain. The key here is that this is a hobby; an enjoyable pass-time; something to do and share with like minded hobby friends. It should be appreciated as a form of art, and like art, it is most always in the eye of the beer holder (beholder).

I'm off the soapbox now...... your turn

[RangerNeil]

Best summary I've seen - to date - came from a Veterans forum as regards the dread cancel culture.
"We live in a free society.
You do have the right to be offended by something you do not like.
You do NOT have the right to demand something you do not like be banned just because you do not like it.
Everyone else has the right to acknowledge your view - and ignore it if they so choose."

[Kevthemodeller]

Best summary I've seen - to date - came from a Veterans forum as regards the dread cancel culture.
"We live in a free society.
You do have the right to be offended by something you do not like.
You do NOT have the right to demand something you do not like be banned just because you do not like it.
Everyone else has the right to acknowledge your view - and ignore it if they so choose."

Absolutely

[Twokidsnosleep]

I would get slapped if I did any of the provocative figures that are out there
So those are off limits

[RangerNeil]

I would get slapped if I did any of the provocative figures that are out there
So those are off limits

Could you not say it was just a case of practicing skin tone variations???

[Twokidsnosleep]

I would get slapped if I did any of the provocative figures that are out there
So those are off limits

Could you not say it was just a case of practicing skin tone variations???

You KNOW the look and eye roll, you just know

[NoelSmith]

I posted quite some time ago on this thread.

Just got to thinking since of throwing a curve ball (being devil's advocate) and saying that maybe an out and out pacifist might find the vast majority of our model subjects offensive as they depict items of war.

[Twokidsnosleep]

I just saw a bust model of Putin painted with blood red up past his nose
Interesting artistic comment

[NoelSmith]

Has anyone done a figure of 'The Donald' yet ?
World's best dressed president in bespoke dark tailored suit and bright red baseball cap.

[digger303]

Has anyone done a figure of 'The Donald' yet ?
World's best dressed president in bespoke dark tailored suit and bright red baseball cap.

In orange

I just saw a bust model of Putin painted with blood red up past his nose
Interesting artistic comment

Very pertinent and to the point.