Tamiya 35216 as Tiger 131

Post by **mannloon** » Fri May 16, 2014 3:59 am

So I know that this version of the early Tiger I isn't exactly right for a Tunisian Tiger (I watched one or two videos of Coen turning this exact kit in to a Tunisian Tiger) but it's close enough for me. I had originally planned to only post some pictures of this model when I finished it, but as I could use some advice I've decided to start now early in the painting process.

I plan to make it look as much like 131 does now as I can, as there is adequate reference. I'm actually building this 1:35 scale model at the same time I'm working on a 3DS Max model of Tiger 131 as well.

A quick clay render of the 3D model in an early stage

So the Tamiya Tiger. I'd say it's my first kit since I started to feel like I know what I'm doing. Mind you I haven't finished the other tanks I'd started when i got back into modeling but this was to be my first to follow a proper technique. Although it was the first tank to get all it's paint from my new airbrush setup, and I am very crap with the airbrush.

Only aftermarket was an Alliance PE Grill set from ebay. I used some spare Dragon grenade launchers from my Panzer III J kit, and eventually the loaders hatch bracket from my Dragon Tiger with Zimmerit (Once it arrived and found it's way to my increasingly large stash). I had originally scratch built the bracket from spare PE but it looked terrible. I did however scratch build (with less failure) the bracket type thing that hangs below the spare track rack on the front of 131. And I looked through all my spares to find the closest grab handle to the scale of the one on 131's front deck, eventually finding a slightly too thick, but tolerable sized one on a sprue from my first armor kit, Tamiya's old old old Panther A 35065.

So the build for my skill level was quick and easy. Admittedly I should've done more work on the seam where the two halves of the feifel meet, and the barrel was a bit unrefined shall we say. I'm not going to deal with two piece barrels in the future. I think I have one more unbuilt kit that has one.

Before the grab handle on the front was added.

Slightly over-dramatic pic after the handle was added, and although you can't see it, the temporary PE scratch built loaders hatch bracket.

I did a Hamilkar Barkas style undercoat of black paint instead of primer. And have now done probably 3 coats of Tamiya Desert Sand. That's where my problems have started. I don't think it's easy to see despite my best efforts as a photographer, but I have some serious orange peel on the turret roof. I had been rather scared of airbrushing a model I had been working so hard on. I was spraying from way too far away, and I'm pretty sure I now have the problem sorted, but it's too late for the turret.

I guess I was trying to avoid ever building up enough paint for it to look even remotely wet as I thought that was bad. So I had been barely dusting it with paint, coat after coat. I used an old kit as practice, and painted "too much and too close" and it looks great after drying, so I think I was being too shy with the paint.

I am trying to decide how to mimic the subtle camo 131 has, I've tried many things out on a test kit, still not sure how to get that barely different tone in what seems to be slightly green/brown. I have read what the DAK actually used, and found any thread on the net of someone trying to make Bovington's "wrong" version. I am debating between mixing up the color to just spray, or spraying an olive or light green camo, and respraying XF-59 over top of it, but that tends to look a bit crap.

Maybe you can see the orange peel on the front part of the turret roof. Probably not though. I tried to take a few more pictures of it.

I've noticed since the build that the Tiger I hatches don't lean that far forward, but there is nothing I can do to adjust it now.

What you can make out a bit is how there is a specular highlight in that area, but the rest of the tank has a typical Tamiya paint ultra mat finish.

So before I go forward with the detail painting and weathering I want some advice.

The orange peel issue. Do I deal with it? Can I remove the paint without it ruining the build? if so how? I have Squadron's fine and very fine sanding sticks. I debated just polishing it off with those, but thought to seek the expert wisdom of ISM instead.

The seam on the feifels. Can I sand it off now, and respray and have it look at all good? I know after the priming coat I could have, but now I've gone and base coated it, so I'm nervous of ruining the model.

Anyway, so that's where I am so far. This should be interesting as I've never used oils with odorless turpentine but I purchased some for washes and streaking and all the fun weathering. I still haven't bought pigments yet, but that's the last thing I don't have. This might be horrible, but I have learned so much by watching the ISM armor builders on youtube that I figure why not?

And by the way, I want to say thanks to you youtube guys. Having all of that content there to learn from makes scale modeling so much more accessible for people wanting to learn. I really appreciate all the work you guys do making videos.

Post by **Panzerwolf** » Sat May 17, 2014 10:06 pm

Your Tiger looks really great so far! Unfortunately, I can't really see the peel on the turret. But you can try removing the paint with a sanding stick, make sure it's very fine. Otherwise you'll get nasty scratches on your turret. The 3D model looks great too! I also love the camo on the Sturmtiger in the background.

Post by **ForbesHutton** » Sun May 18, 2014 12:13 am

The best way to mute camo is spray on the rest of the colors in the pattern. When it's dry, mist the base coat (in this case the desert yellow) over the model again.

Post by **AchtungPanzer** » Sun May 18, 2014 11:59 am

Looks OK. Good work ! Well done Buddy.

Post by **mannloon** » Mon May 19, 2014 3:53 am

So here is my last attempt to show the orange peel on the turret roof. I'm not going to dwell on this too long.

Here I think you can see the variation in texture a bit. Bumpy in places, shiny in others where I tried to compensate.

Super close up of the texture.

I guess I'm not going to worry about it too much. I think I'll just carry on with the camo and detail painting as I have a break from work. I guess what I was insecure about can be boiled down to this question: In regards to problems noticed during paintwork, either just noticing a seam you didn't sand enough or messing up the painting itself. What is the "rule" about fixing things. Do you try and remove the paint? Do you fix the problem, re-prime, then repaint over top of the mistake?

But I will as I said probably just carry on. It's possible the weathering could reduce the problem anyway. Thanks for saying nice things about it guys. I am a little nervous doing this where people can see it.

Post by **mannloon** » Wed May 21, 2014 11:23 pm

Did the initial camo. Might go back over and tighten it up. Still debating on dusting back over with the base color.

I've used XF-59 as the base and XF-49 as the camo color.
On to the detail painting and wheels.

Post by **Coen** » Thu May 22, 2014 4:36 am

Hey bud, I just found your thread this evening. I gotta say... I wish I'd found it a few days ago. It's a bit late now to offer advise on the spray peal on the turret. You already know what to do to keep from doing it again. Lesson learned as they say.

I'd say the about 1/3 of my tigers have peal on the turrets, so you can work around it with weathering.
I love the look of those colours dude. Their awesome. That camo is really cool too.
I'm really keen to see where you take this.

Post by **mannloon** » Thu May 22, 2014 4:56 am

Thanks Coen, This is my first build since switching to the airbrush so something like peal was bound to happen. Tunisian camo is a mystery to me, so I'm pleased you like where it is currently. This is a very experimental build in the sense that I've never clear coated before, or used washes or pigments, but I've studied everything you youtubers have posted.

I wanted to get aftermarket tracks. Haven't yet though. Magic track and AFV club stuff goes for nearly as much as a kit on ebay, so that may be the weak spot of the kit. We will have to see.

Post by **Coen** » Thu May 22, 2014 12:58 pm

The tracks that come with that kit are pretty crappy if I remember correctly. They'll be tricky to get them to glue together, hold paint, and imitate the proper sag off the sprocket. It is possible... just tricky. In my next video on my tiger I can give a couple of pointers on how you can do it if you like?
It's not trouble.
Oh... no one knows what colour tigers were in Tunisia my friend. Lots of folks say that they do, but there is currently no positive evidence to say for sure. So just taking the paint company that you use and their version of Dunkelgelb and add a drop or two of white to it to lighten it and you're good.
No one can call you wrong.

The Bovington Tiger however has a very real and creatable colour. I'm not sure what it is as I've never looked it up, but it's out there.
Since that's what you're modelling that's the colour I would think you should go for. It's soo much easier.

Post by **mannloon** » Thu May 22, 2014 1:30 pm

I would take any pointers on making Tamiya's vinyl tracks look anything like decent. Think I have like 6 tanks I've been avoiding putting the tracks on since they're Tamiya rubber band tracks. One of the things I've really tried to find solid guidance on was painting the tracks. As it stands it seems to be to paint them black, then either wash brown or lightly spray brown but the color used for that varies quite a bit from person to person. Then the obvious dry brushing with something metal and shiny, and pigments. So I'm all ears on that as well.

I use CA to glue them, but paint tends to look pretty iffy on them. The only time I've had them look ok was on a King Tiger where the fenders hid the upper part of the track so no sag could be seen.

Post by **Coen** » Fri May 23, 2014 5:44 pm

I'll certainly see what I can do then my friend. It will be a day or so before I can film it. Probably by Sunday or Monday.

Post by **mannloon** » Tue May 27, 2014 4:21 am

Today I went and cleaned up some of the base coat, and tightened up the camo. I'm calling that done. I still think the more greenish color could be muted a bit, but I'm not sure how to dust the base color as I've been told to without having the paint dry before it hits the model and orange peal. maybe I'm not understanding something about coats like that. I'm not sure how far away to have the brush, or anything like that.

I started the detail painting including the tools and the wheel rubber. in my head I was way better at painting then I guess I really am, so as it stands the wheels are just started and looking horrible, I'm not sure if when I screw up a bit with the brush if I should go back over with the airbrush and re-basecoat that part of the rim and try again with a brush...I don't like the idea of brush painting with Tamiya acrylics with the basecoat color to touch up, they dry too fast and look awful. The fact I'm using it on the tires is surprising to me, but if those look less than smooth it's ok. I think in the future I will go back to using Model Master enamels for detail painting, just brushes on better. Or maybe I'll look into some Model Color for brushing...Advice welcome on that one.

There's a quick picture of the wheels just dry fit up to it, I needed to see it in a different way to motivate me. I think I'll be tinkering with those wheels for some time. Compared to the real Tiger I can see some proportion issues with my camo scheme, may touch that up, might not. And like I said the darker color seems just a bit too dark, or too green, I need to mute that out, but whether or not to use weathering like a filter, or dust base color with the airbrush is beyond me.

As to the detail painting, I always get a little confused. I think I've done 5 or 6 German tanks and I'm still not sure on some of the tool colors. If there isn't a reference thread for that we should start one.

I still have another week off from work for the most part, just some meetings, so I'm going to try and finish detail painting and the first future coat so I can put the decals on and be ready for weathering by the end of the week.

Post by **Coen** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:07 pm

It looks to me like you got the colours pretty close bud. Once you add weathering it will darken a bit so keep that in mind too eh?
As for the tools... they came in a few colours on German vehicles... and then there's what modellers do. haha
Mostly they came in either a plain wood colour with a varnish or they were a green colour. Once they were on the vehicle they tended to get painted in camo colour along with the rest of the vehicle.
Some crews stripped the vehicle before camo paint was applied, some didn't. So you have quite a bit of license with them.
Modellers tend to go with the wood colour as it adds visual interest to the piece. Then you can use oils to detail them if you like.

Post by **mannloon** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:04 pm

Here's an example of typical noob question.

obviously I will just go with a steel color for the cable as I prefer it to black (just think black cables look funny), and then the attaching brackets hull color. but everything is more complex than it seems at first. Just want to get it right.

That picture is of the Littlefield Panther

Post by **Coen** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:25 am

The tow cable eyes in that shot are painted in the red oxide primer that was extremely common on most mid-late war german AFVs. Most of the time those things were painted the same colour as the tank though... That picture I'd a bit of an oddity.
The cables themselves I'll usually paint felts black then give them a wash of rust followed by a dry brushing of a metal colour... Mostly humbrol buffable metal vote at the moment.
The barrel cleaning rods you can paint either the same colour as the tank or a wood colour.
The clamps that hold the tow cable on are all the same colour as the tank as well.

Post by **mannloon** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:25 am

thank you good sir, and my apologies for the constant questions. I'm getting up to speed.

Post by **Nige99** » Wed May 28, 2014 7:09 am

This is a couple of pics I took a couple of years ago of the Tiger Coen is on about.
Hope it helps you in some way!!

Check out the strike which knocked out this Tiger!!

Post by **Coen** » Wed May 28, 2014 6:35 pm

Jeez... seeing that thing always gives me chills.
One day sweet heart I'll lay hands on ya. :X

Post by **mannloon** » Wed May 28, 2014 10:04 pm

I feel the same way about any German tanks Coen. So they say the American Tunisian Tiger will be fully restored in much the same way, but I have my doubts. I never got to go to Aberdeen while the tanks were there so I hold out hope that they'll make a sweet museum in Virginia or Georgia.

Post by **mannloon** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:29 am

Spent today working on my Jagdpanther for the Dangerous Cats SiG, but I got some AFV workable track for the Tiger last week. I put one run together the other night. Went together pretty well. So far I'm impressed. Am I $22 impressed? Um...unkown. But if the Bronco or Kaizen tracks for Panthers are anything like these were I'd probably pick them up.

I took this while I was testing out how they worked and how well they fit the sprocket.

I have a bit of wheel painting clean up to do than I hope to base coat.

Post by **Coen** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:54 pm

I think I'll give these tracks a try... I like the look of them

Post by **mannloon** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:59 pm

Assembly is crazy easy and fast Coen. As someone pointed out to me the guide horn piece is molded so thin that some of the smaller pieces are damaged or flashy. But there are enough good ones for two runs and the spares for the front of my Tiger and then some crap pieces. They seem to understand their own product.

Post by **mannloon** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:46 am

Thought I'd post a few pics of the finished track run.

Any flash you see on the runs is all there was. I was just in one of those moods to just build it, and go clean it up later. I'll probably regret that.

Did a little test fit, although since the road wheels are still in separate bits it doesn't sag right.

Not bad at all though.

Post by **PaulAyrey** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:56 pm

This is a great build, really impressed so far, well done!

Post by **Nige99** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:30 am

Really like the look of them tracks!! They look great, nice sag on the wheels too.

Post by **AchtungPanzer** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:30 pm

Motel now looks great

. Metal tracks make an impression. Well done

Post by **trekfanj** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:17 am

That is one great looking Tiger!

I'm glad the AFV tracks worked for you; I've decided to get the Friulmodel ones for my Zvezda Tiger.
Keep up the good work!!

I can't wait to see this finished!

Post by **Donkeywalloper** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:43 am

Lovely, lovely job.
Just signed up to a SIG for a Tiger build so this wetting my appetite greatly.
Keep up brilliant work

John

Post by **AchtungPanzer** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:20 pm

Your Tiger :

Post by **UKguyInUSA** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:35 pm

Great job, mate..the metal tracks make a big difference!

Post by **mannloon** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:24 am

So after the dangerous cats sig ended i busted this back out. Repainted the wheels with quickwheel masks, gloss coat, decals and primed the AFV club tracks. Hoping to finish her pretty soon. I'm much better at building and everything since i started this, but it's a cool piece, so why not finish it right?

Post by **Coen** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:41 am

That is going to look 1000 times cool!!!!
I love the look of this dude.

Post by **mannloon** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:47 am

I hope so Coen, This picture was from my ipad so you can't see terribly well. Those awful Tamiya decals were super thick, so I have given them what I hope was sufficient goings over with micro sol and then I'll do a few more coats of gloss over top tomorrow. I never really understood the importance of Cartograf or other good decals until I went back and used some Tamiya ones...big difference.

Post by **trekfanj** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:06 am

Looking great, Adam!

I really, really want to see this in all it's "finished up" glory!

Post by **mannloon** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:43 am

Base coated the tracks, and did an overall pin wash (which didn't come out like I wanted it) to everythign except the turret and some other small parts. I want to go back over with MIG neutral or dark wash, then dot filter and chip.

Here's where she is. A few of the inner wheels are glued on, but not either of the outer 2 sets.

These are the primed and base coated AFV Club workable tracks. The sag on these things is brilliant. I base coat with a track primer color, then wash, then dry brush, then pigment. I've done it before and think it looks good. I plan to aim for a lighter tone with these tracks than usual as the Bovington Tiger has.

Post by **PaulAyrey** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:20 am

Wow, that is looking rather gorgeous Adam. Well done.

Post by **Donkeywalloper** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:53 pm

That is a real lovely model Adam.
The Mig Neutral Wash is a really lovely product.
Aces job.
John

Post by **mannloon** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:26 am

Ok, so since the last update I've done more washing, dot filters and some track weathering.

I am really liking where the tracks are going. So far just a dusting of rust pigment over the dry brushing which I feel gives it the right look.

When I did the dot filter it brought back the carrier film of the decals. Honestly it's pretty heart breaking as this has been otherwise a great build experience where everything came out close to what I wanted. I have no idea why that happened really. I had managed to get the decals down ok with generous amounts micro sol....but I guess I'll just have to live with it.

I went back to the drawing board on the tow cables and jack block as those were areas I didn't like very much on my Jagdpanther build.

Also sorry these pictures are so blurry, I seriously need a new camera. Or to learn how to use the one I have maybe.

That's where she stands. I have been doing some freelance between semesters teaching, so I have VERY little time right now to work on this. But I have gone nuts with the Tiger kits lately. I have geeked out so hard on the Tiger I while building this that just this week bought Dragon 6406, 6600 and the Academy early with interior to add to the stash of 6383, 6700 and 9142. It's a disease man.

So once I'm happy with the tracks I can attach the wheels and get to the tow cables and jack block, and then I'll probably call her done. Chipping I may skip on this one too. The Bovington Tiger has some light chipping, but I feel like if I added it now it would pop too much. I think I should have done it before the dot filter.

Post by **PaulAyrey** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:00 am

Superb Adam, sorry to hear about your tigeritis! Really like this one a lot.

Post by **ForTheWatch** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:39 pm

Sorry for digging up an old thread, but Im in process of building my DAK and actually found your vids super useful (most useful from them all) in getting mine build from scratch. Unlike you I used the DAK Tamiya version but overall when it comes to painting i think we are in the same boat.

I see you went with XF59 and XF49 combo. I have used Tamiya guidebook originally and painted the whole thing XF60 with thought of adding XF49. On pics it is so hard to tell what color It should be, but do you think dunkelgelb is worse as base coat choice for Tunisia tiger than XF59? Is it more or less a consensus view that the XF59 is closer to whatever RAL number (8000 I believe) than XF60?

If someone else wants to chime in on this, happy to hear you out. Im not thrilled about redoing wheels in XF59 after they are done in XF60 already, yet historical accuracy and all that.

I also think that Dunkelgelb XF60 seems closer to Bovington tiger 131, but ... it looks so different depending on the light. XF60 has some mustard/olive color to it, while XF59 is more brownish/coffee latte color.

Super confusing. XF49 I plan to dilute with white 2/1 as it seems too khaki vs XF60 at least.

Post by **mannloon** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:59 pm

You can actually google RAL colors, but what I did was just try to match by eye Bovingtons tank. In the end I ended up being very close by accident to what has become accepted as the new standard for DAK paint schemes. RAL 8000 with overspray of 7008. That doesn't mean no one used dunkelgelb (ral 7028) in Afrika. I'm pretty sure they did actually. I copied Bovingtons color scheme because I was making their tank, but I've seen color reference of dunkelgelb Panzers in theater. There are tons of discussion on tiif.de and network54 about this, and the argument for RAL 8000 is strong. There are orders some guys quote, and all kinds of stuff that is way over my head.

You should read this
http://www.tiif.de/thread.php?sid=905d9 ... ostid=4774

Post by **AgentG** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:30 pm

Dark Yellow did make it's way to North Africa on some late model Pz III N's and the last of the Pz IV G's delivered. Not many mind you, but some AFV's did get there in Dunkelgelb. This is a good shot depicting the RAL 7028 with a RAL 7027 pattern.

I personally believe the XF-59/XF-49 combination is the best at replicating RAL 8000/7008, out of the bottle. Weathering darkens the XF 59 to an acceptable shade. I personally use a mix of Tamiya to replicate these colors. Here's my take on RAL 8000 and RAL 7008 before weathering.

Here are two mixes I use. I believe the credit for these is to Mr. Mike Starmer and his wonderful research.

for RAL 8000 based on Tamiya paints I did 2 versions:
Muster 10: 4xXF4+2xXF52+1xXF60
or
Muster 21: 4xXF4+2xXF52+1xXF60+1xXF59+1xXF49
Which one you choose depends on your personal choice.

I usually mix XF49 and XF62 1 to 1 for RAL 7008. I lighten that with a drop or two of XF55 to suit.

I have to believe the folks at Bovington did their research during the restoration. Finding RAL 8000 and 7008 still there after all these years was a blessing.

G

Post by **ForTheWatch** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:50 pm

Appreciate the replies guys.

Here is where I was before I asked the question (pic attached). This is Dunkelgelb with Buff with white (2/1) and XF49 with Buff (2/1). The painting didnt really go well as I never painted with an airbrush in my life before attempting this kit... The colors are OK, dunkelgelb XF60 looks more mustard then yellow to my eyes but it photographed yellow. Go figure. I think in real life contrast I got is much bigger. So my approach didnt yield a a "correct" paint scheme, and I did also what Adam didnt like doing (added a highly diluted mist coat of Buff color to dull it, and thus reduce contrast). The contrast between greenish and yellowish coats is more pronounced in real life, but in pics again it just seems to blend well.

Mind, this is a first model i built since I was a kid, which is 20 years ago. And it has the crappy tracks with no holes in them, which kinda bugs me but... Will may be add a bit of mud to obscure it and simulate the sag better.

Post by **mannloon** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:04 am

Lots of people do that buff misting including my good friends in the Youtube community, I just haven't. This build for me was nearly 2 years ago so I've changed a lot of how i do things, but i am still lazy and a fan of being pretty close as perfect never happens. I have stripped the roof of my current build 3 times as i hate the camo, but color matching will drive you crazy, so i pick close and try to weather and filter to what i like. If thats your first time airbrushing it looks very well painted.

Post by **ForTheWatch** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:29 am

mannloon wrote:Lots of people do that buff misting including my good friends in the Youtube community, I just haven't. This build for me was nearly 2 years ago so I've changed a lot of how i do things, but i am still lazy and a fan of being pretty close as perfect never happens. I have stripped the roof of my current build 3 times as i hate the camo, but color matching will drive you crazy, so i pick close and try to weather and filter to what i like. If thats your first time airbrushing it looks very well painted.

would be great to see how it looks after you've improved it. Luckily I had no issue with orange peel, "luckily" could be the key word. I watched a lot of youtube channels on it, yes it was my first try painting with airbrush, thank you.

Post by **Morgoth62** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:47 am

I would be nice if you posted new pics with your upgrades. Thanks for sharing such an in depth build log.

thomas;)

Post by **InitialProduction1** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:53 am

Awesome build Adam. I was shocked "like coen", to find this build. So I'm late to the party, surprise! Anyway, I know it was hard to work with an old Tamiya kit. When there's so many amazing tiger kits out there, I'm in a bad spot with Tamiya tigers myself, I have three of them. And I just can't get rid of them. I'M SICK!! On the tracks you can glue them to the drive sprocket, then glue to the idler sprocket then turn them both inward, after it drys, you'll get a bow in it just glue where you want it. I will say I've given into buying aftermarket now. again awesome build.

Post by **digger303** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:54 am

AK do a dak paint profile guide also available as an ebook pub ( half price ).
This site maybe useful as well. http://www.desertarmor.com/DAK2/DAK_PAINTING_GUIDE.html

Post by **Morgoth62** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:25 pm

In your first post you stated you watched two Coen videos. Which ones? Can you provide a link?

Thanks in advance

Thomas;)

Post by **Morgoth62** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:57 am

Any update on this? Is it finished?