I won't model anything with a swastika on it..

[modeller]

Today I was surfing the net loking for info on the Hawker Harrier GR.1 as it is one aircraft I've been wanting to build and thought I would add it to my Christmas list in case my sister or mum wnats to get me something I'd actually want...

Anyway, while surfing I was distracted by a comment I read about what subject as a modeller would never pass your bench...

The comment in question was "I won't model anything with a swastika on it.."

I have no problems with displaying swasticas in the context of modelling a WWII subject... in fact I cannot think of any subject I would not build only subjects that I am not interested in building (Bikes for example)...

What about ISM members... are any subject 'off limits' for you?

[Paul]

Oh course it's personal choice for some of us and actual law for others, so some have a choice others don't as such. Myself I don't worry about anything being off limits as long as it doesn't border into bad taste.

[Colin]

Today I was surfing the net loking for info on the Hawker Harrier GR.1 as it is one aircraft I've been wanting to build and thought I would add it to my Christmas list in case my sister or mum wnats to get me something I'd actually want...

Anyway, while surfing I was distracted by a comment I read about what subject as a modeller would never pass your bench...

The comment in question was "I won't model anything with a swastika on it.."

I have no problems with displaying swasticas in the context of modelling a WWII subject... in fact I cannot think of any subject I would not build only subjects that I am not interested in building (Bikes for example)...

What about ISM members... are any subject 'off limits' for you?

I dont think there is anything I'd not try and model if I took a shine to it, have even been considering building an egg plane for a while now

[Paul]

Today I was surfing the net loking for info on the Hawker Harrier GR.1 as it is one aircraft I've been wanting to build and thought I would add it to my Christmas list in case my sister or mum wnats to get me something I'd actually want...

Anyway, while surfing I was distracted by a comment I read about what subject as a modeller would never pass your bench...

The comment in question was "I won't model anything with a swastika on it.."

I have no problems with displaying swasticas in the context of modelling a WWII subject... in fact I cannot think of any subject I would not build only subjects that I am not interested in building (Bikes for example)...

What about ISM members... are any subject 'off limits' for you?

I dont think there is anything I'd not try and model if I took a shine to it, have even been considering building an egg plane for a while now

Wait till Easter time Colin were planing a build for them

[modeller]

...... have even been considering building an egg plane for a while now

Wait till Easter time Colin were planing a build for them

LOL... my daughter is halfway throug the Harrier Egg Plane at the moment... they look good fum, fancy doing one myself.

[Colin]

Today I was surfing the net loking for info on the Hawker Harrier GR.1 as it is one aircraft I've been wanting to build and thought I would add it to my Christmas list in case my sister or mum wnats to get me something I'd actually want...

Anyway, while surfing I was distracted by a comment I read about what subject as a modeller would never pass your bench...

The comment in question was "I won't model anything with a swastika on it.."

I have no problems with displaying swasticas in the context of modelling a WWII subject... in fact I cannot think of any subject I would not build only subjects that I am not interested in building (Bikes for example)...

What about ISM members... are any subject 'off limits' for you?

I dont think there is anything I'd not try and model if I took a shine to it, have even been considering building an egg plane for a while now

Wait till Easter time Colin were planing a build for them

Haha, great, just ordered this from a Korean Ebay shop, should be here in time for Easter

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271285838797

[Paul]

Yeah I like that, not sure what I'll do, hmmm.....

[schweinhund227]

That's a good question !

although I don't fully understand the reason why the person you make reference to...as based his Reply on ?? why would he state it, in such a way ? maybe you should link us the place where you found that Post and we could read a little bit more about it ? it sounded pretty FINAL !

He can still build all of those Germans Airplanes.... without the cross and move on with his life ! although not Historically accurate ! I would not Hold it against him ! for all the good reasons...

and to answer your question ! "Paper models". I admire the Art ! but I can't see myself doing one !

[chief5437]

For me it would be civvie aircraft. They're not cool, not mean, and don't have guns and bombs! Lol! The only one I could maybe do is Concorde, but I'd have to be pushed!

[fly1ngdutchm4n]

In my German models is a swastika visible. I do NOT support, in any way, the ideoligy behind the swastika, but I want realistic and historical correct models...

[longlance67]

I think this is a good thread and rises an interesting topic, If i was building a German aircraft or ship, and the swastika was marked on the real machine then I would have problem putting in on the model, though I do not support that twisted ideal, its just a part of the model and we as modelers always go on about detail and this is no different.

Another thing I've told off before in the past by other modelers was putting wounded and dead in dioramas, which I think if your doing a depiction of Iwo Jima or Omaha beach having the fallen is every bit a tribute simply censoring them out. Mind you its not to say I have dismembered bodies on a dio as I think its a little distasteful to go that level of realism,

I think its all a manner of taste


cheers



Shane

[gosselin2112]

A lot of digital lettering has been written on the topic of swastikas. Like others, historical accuracy is important in my model building. I think there should be just mutual respect and understanding between the two camps.

I'm not particularly excited about building airliners. Here is a best to worst list of my model likes.

1. Armor and figures
2. Military aircraft
3. Military ships
4. Sci-Fi
5. Modern stuff (jets, armor, etc.)
6. Fantasy and comic book characters.
7. Cars
8. Bikes
9. Civilian aircraft and boats.

Of course this could all change over time. There are some resin female kits that I would most likely not build. One being that they are incredibley hard to master. Two, not sure what the Mrs. would say. Third, some are getting downright pornographic. But the boobies and lingeries are okay!

This is a cool thread.

Russ

PS: Someone should start and Easter Egg Plane GB

[graham22]

I build a representation of the thing as it was, if this includes a swastika then so be it.
it really annoys me when the PC brigade get on their soap boxes
I really wish you could still get a John Player Special F1 or a Rothmans rally escort or manta. It certainly wouldn't make me start to smoke....

[UKscalemodeller]

The swastika issue raises its head every 6 months or so, my personal choice is to put swastikas on it if it had swastikas on it.

As for what DOESN'T float my modelling boat, bikes and cars (although I will be doing a car next year)

[modeller]

That's a good question !

although I don't fully understand the reason why the person you make reference to...as based his Reply on ?? why would he state it, in such a way ? maybe you should link us the place where you found that Post and we could read a little bit more about it ? it sounded pretty FINAL !

It was a modellers blog but as I found it by accident I have not been able to find it again... It mentioned as an argument against doing German subjects that modelling specific pilots like Galland was glorifying a man who killed many allied pilots.

I can understand to a degree if someone who lived through the war years and was personally effected by the Nazi regime being against the displaying of the swastika, and I worked with a young Israeli guy years ago who objected when he saw a WW2 Jeep I had modelled that had some stowage in the back including a Nazi flag as a would have been taken by G.I.'s as a trophy.

But I also worked with a fantastic Polish architect who was in the resistance during the war and told us about how his treatment by the Nazi's had left him with a deep hatred of Germans and he had killed a few... but that today he has German friends and considered the Soviets (not Russians) as far worse having suffered under their occupation and dogma for decades... He would understandably never model a CCCP subject or a German subject...

I'm Irish (Dublin born and bred) but I've no problem building British subjects, indeed I love to build a 1970's era British Army VPK Piglet - N.Ireland - Op Banner 1990.

[alextheblue]

I have no problem with the swastika but can fully appreciate why some people see it as a symbol of extremism and oppression. For me it is just a symbol and what it represents will change from individual to individual. It is important to understand what Germany had been through prior to the rise of the Nazi party - you could literally fill a wheelbarrow full of money just to guy a postage stamp. Power had changed hands countless times and all of a sudden a political party appeared that appealed to the average man and more importantly they appeared to deliver on their promises.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending fascism, but you have to look at everything in context and modern Germany bears absolutely no resemblance to the Germany of 70 years ago. The world has moved on and to uphold the same dated dogma against a symbol is no better than the fascism that lay behind it in the first

Personally, I love Germany and I have always found German people and the culture to be extremely warm and friendly. In short, I have no problem with the swastika as I see it as a symbol of a bygone age that has no relevance on today.

[JayCub]

The swastika symbol is not German and appeared a couple of hundred years earlier, or better still as Coen said on a video, I model History and im really happy with that

[modeller]

To be honest as modellers it is pretty much a given that we see the display of such emblems in a different light to other folk.


As for our modelling 'won't build'... I know guys who are dedicated to their SIG and rarely deviate from it... a friend only builds Japanese maritime subjects... When I was a kid I would build what ever I got, cars/planes/boats it didn't matter but when I got back into modelling I only build cars (road and race)... but now I have built (and have in my stash ready to build) aircraft, a tank, soft skin AFV, tanks, a London double decker, 1/16 figures and a 1/800 Titanic.

I've yet to build any Sci-Fi, Bikes, Boats or Airliners, these are not subjects I have a connection with...

[keith]

The swastika symbol is not German and appeared a couple of hundred years earlier, or better still as Coen said on a video, I model History and im really happy with that

Read this you may find it interesting
http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Hindu%20Pri ... stika.html
As for not wanting to build a certain subject I think you could be missing out on a experience

[modeller]

If anyone is visiting London and is around the Covent Garden area, near by in the Aldwych is the Indian Embassy which has a dozen large plaques on the façade one of which is two swastika symbols between a tree...

[modeller]

Also in Ireland (Dublin) we had a laundry service called the 'Swastika Laundry'. It was founded in 1912 so well before the rise of the German Nazi party... and only closed down in the late 1960's...



... the laundey had a massive chimney stack with a large swastika on it. The chimney is still standing and the faded swastika was only removed when the site was redeveloped for housing in the 1990's.

[HamilkarBarkas]

"I won't model anything with a swastika on it.."

Model building and history - two different subjects.
I don´t get why people tend to see models as a piece of history, they are just a piece of plastic.
I know this symbol has a 12 years long terrible history but seriously, why are some people still so hurted by it? i don´t mind it to see a swedish flag although they pretty much exterminated the population in my area in the thirty years war. I´m not butthurt about it and i think after 60 years i can expect the same from the younger generations.

[modeller]

Model building and history - two different subjects..

Indeed they are... but a model that represents an event in history can be very powerful... especially a well detailed diorama, Museums often use models for display...

I've always felt that the use of the battle flag by the Army of Northern Virginia (Confederate Flag as on the roof of General Lee) should be treated in the same way as the Nazi Flag.... The Flag represented a nation of people who endorse slavery and segregation based on race and religion... but now it is widely used in popular culture to denote a rebellious spirit... I cannot see a time when the Nazi Flag will be as acceptable as the Confederate Flag is today such is it's power even after 70 years.

[WebbyNZ]

If you let the opinions of others about your subject matter than it will effect the quality of your builds.
You should do what makes you happy, even if the subject matter may have a checkered past.
Build models for yourself, nobody else.

As for the swastika, the most famous church in NZ damaged by the earthquakes had them lining the walls and while in japan I saw a number of old signs off the 'tourist' routes use them to indicate temples and places of worship.

And for those who have not tried a car or bike build, the challenge is as much if not more than military subjects. Getting a showroom shine is a real skill and bikes leave no room to hide any mistakes as there is little to no covering up engines with body panels/fairings/armour/mud etc

[modeller]

... for those who have not tried a car or bike build, the challenge is as much if not more than military subjects. Getting a showroom shine is a real skill and bikes leave no room to hide any mistakes as there is little to no covering up engines with body panels/fairings/armour/mud etc

that's a fair point, my cars (even the motorsport subjects) have been 'clean' builds... to get a realistic race worn look takes a bit more skill to make it realistic.

[Lego]

It is rather funny to think how powerful images can be. I mean take the mustache Hitler had. It was a very common mustache but when was the last time you spotted someone with one? In historical photos there are many but I honestly can't think I have ever seen someone with what is now know as the Hitler mustache.

To Hamil, I would also differentiate the mass slaughter of people in such a cold blooded way, which is what the nazis did in world war 2. It was the systematic slaughter of a people/culture on a scale never seen before and I hope never to be repeated again. It is also quite recent in Historical terms. It was not just rage, anger, death etc....it was a culture, belief that had such ramifications that literally touched every part of this world. There where horrors perpetrated under that symbol that make me shiver at the thought of it. Many nationalities came together under that symbol and committed atrocities. For me it wen't past slaughter, it was a cancer of the soul.

But on a lighter note I have no problem with a model flag swastika as long as it is not used for propaganda or some sort of worship rubbish.

[modeller]

You should have seen peoples reactions when I first displayed this model at shows....

[HWGuderian23]

It’s my personal conviction that everyone all the world over knows the swastika, and also everyone knows (or often just hold the belief to know – cos this cross is not only a political Nazi symbol as most people ordinarily read it) its purport and its implications that no one in his right mind will seriously argue that he might be able to consent its meaning or support its ideology (regardless whether one applies it on his models or not)!

It hardly needs mentioning that I understand people who have a problem showing all kind of Nazi imagery or symbolism on their models but in my opinion it’s just that if anybody has this problem (for personal reasons whatsoever) my advice would ever be NOT TO BUILD any subjects who actualises things that served under the sign of the swastika …. otherwise you’ll kid oneself.

As a german I originally had an ambiguous relationship with all kind of national symbolism and always have tried to take every precaution on their usage.
I grew up in a town where almost 8.000 american soldiers were stationed during the cold war era. During my entire school days I’ve crossed the U.S. barracks with the Stars and Stripes in front of it many times a day. For me (and most of my friends) the Stars and Stripes had the following naive meaning back in the day: “delicious american strawberry ice cream”, “ham-and-eggs”, “Baseball”, “American Football” and “defence against nuclear warefare”. Later on it was cool hanging the Stars and Stripes over one’s bed and the older guys used the banner as a rear window sticker while going on a cruise. And now try to imagine yourselves what would happen to you if one’s would do the same in Bagdad, Basra, Kunduz or Teheran!
Please don’t get me wrong, the Stars and Stripes and the swastika could never range on the same level – my intention was pointing out that all kind of symbolism always must be seen in its currently contextual coherencies that everyone always has to use care on its usage.

[schweinhund227]

It’s my personal conviction that everyone all the world over knows the swastika, and also everyone knows (or often just hold the belief to know – cos this cross is not only a political Nazi symbol as most people ordinarily read it) its purport and its implications that no one in his right mind will seriously argue that he might be able to consent its meaning or support its ideology (regardless whether one applies it on his models or not)!

It hardly needs mentioning that I understand people who have a problem showing all kind of Nazi imagery or symbolism on their models but in my opinion it’s just that if anybody has this problem (for personal reasons whatsoever) my advice would ever be NOT TO BUILD any subjects who actualises things that served under the sign of the swastika …. otherwise you’ll kid oneself.

As a german I originally had an ambiguous relationship with all kind of national symbolism and always have tried to take every precaution on their usage.
I grew up in a town where almost 8.000 american soldiers were stationed during the cold war era. During my entire school days I’ve crossed the U.S. barracks with the Stars and Stripes in front of it many times a day. For me (and most of my friends) the Stars and Stripes had the following naive meaning back in the day: “delicious american strawberry ice cream”, “ham-and-eggs”, “Baseball”, “American Football” and “defence against nuclear warefare”. Later on it was cool hanging the Stars and Stripes over one’s bed and the older guys used the banner as a rear window sticker while going on a cruise. And now try to imagine yourselves what would happen to you if one’s would do the same in Bagdad, Basra, Kunduz or Teheran!
Please don’t get me wrong, the Stars and Stripes and the swastika could never range on the same level – my intention was pointing out that all kind of symbolism always must be seen in its currently contextual coherencies that everyone always has to use care on its usage.

Beautifully written!

[fly1ngdutchm4n]

It’s my personal conviction that everyone all the world over knows the swastika, and also everyone knows (or often just hold the belief to know – cos this cross is not only a political Nazi symbol as most people ordinarily read it) its purport and its implications that no one in his right mind will seriously argue that he might be able to consent its meaning or support its ideology (regardless whether one applies it on his models or not)!

It hardly needs mentioning that I understand people who have a problem showing all kind of Nazi imagery or symbolism on their models but in my opinion it’s just that if anybody has this problem (for personal reasons whatsoever) my advice would ever be NOT TO BUILD any subjects who actualises things that served under the sign of the swastika …. otherwise you’ll kid oneself.

As a german I originally had an ambiguous relationship with all kind of national symbolism and always have tried to take every precaution on their usage.
I grew up in a town where almost 8.000 american soldiers were stationed during the cold war era. During my entire school days I’ve crossed the U.S. barracks with the Stars and Stripes in front of it many times a day. For me (and most of my friends) the Stars and Stripes had the following naive meaning back in the day: “delicious american strawberry ice cream”, “ham-and-eggs”, “Baseball”, “American Football” and “defence against nuclear warefare”. Later on it was cool hanging the Stars and Stripes over one’s bed and the older guys used the banner as a rear window sticker while going on a cruise. And now try to imagine yourselves what would happen to you if one’s would do the same in Bagdad, Basra, Kunduz or Teheran!
Please don’t get me wrong, the Stars and Stripes and the swastika could never range on the same level – my intention was pointing out that all kind of symbolism always must be seen in its currently contextual coherencies that everyone always has to use care on its usage.

Beautifully written!

Totaly agree!

[Lego]

But would you wear a mustache like hitler?

[HWGuderian23]

But would you wear a mustache like hitler?

Where? In Bagdad or so? Oh I'm not sure what would be less dangerous (think it over mate) !
And what about you? Would you wear such a mustache ?

[Lego]

Lol what has swastika or mustaches to do with danger? I thought I was talking about imagery and what it invokes in peoples perceptions.

[HWGuderian23]

Lol what has swastika or mustaches to do with danger? I thought I was talking about imagery and what it invokes in peoples perceptions.

Each kind of (political or national) imagery has to do with danger mate - plenty of actually! It poisoned peoples mind and constitutes a stereotyped concept of an enemy (which has hardly ever be grounded in reality). For this fact you will find abundantly bloody historical circumstances in all countries. And swastika and Hitler's mustache are very strong examples for such a kind of imagery.
But mind out! Both symbols not obligatory bear the same meaning for everyone (that's what I've tried to explain in my post). There're many people in different countries all over the world who continue adore both symbols and also its ideology (hard to believe but sadly true).

[Lego]

Yes I get your point but I think the opening post is more to with why they would never model a swastika. I have come in from the point of view that no one wants to be associated with or promote its beliefs by modelling which I can see but not necessarily agree with. My point being that you do not see people with that mustache because of association. Not getting swastikas with your 1/48 stuka is pants.

But I will disagree with you on one point peoples perceptions of the swastika are well grounded in reality when it comes to world war two.

[HWGuderian23]

Oh pardon me mate - my first reply based on a post further back in this thread!

But I will disagree with you on one point peoples perceptions of the swastika are well grounded in reality when it comes to world war two.

You're right about that point mate and I totally agree with you in this particular case!

[Coen]

I model history, not politics.
The person that views my pieces brings that with them when they look at it.

It makes no difference to me if the subject has a Nazi flag, a Rising Sun Flag, or the Italian Flag, they're just historical elements to the piece that I'm building. Not different than the style of roof that I would have to chose for a villager's cottage in the suburbs of Krakow.
The same goes for dioramas with wounded or dead people in them.
I don't really build those only because they are emotionally draining to create.

Myself, I feel genuine terror, shame, and fear when I see a Nazi flag (not a swastika a swastika is just a rune). The flag itself strikes an almost primal fear into me. And that's a good thing. It means that I've learned the lesson of lest we forget.
The same thing happens when I see images of the struggles on the beaches of Normandy, or the men slogging through the mud in the Pacific, The heat in Vietnam, or the freezing winters of Korea.

Banning things like the display of a symbol like a swastika is akin to book burning, which is a blatant act of fear and mindless ignorance with a dash of distilled mass hysteria.

So when it comes to things that I won't build...
There aren't any subjects that I won't build.
There are some that I would find difficult to do because of a lack of skills, or the imagery is somewhat painful.
But I would try anyway.

[HWGuderian23]

I model history, not politics.
The person that views my pieces brings that with them when they look at it.

It makes no difference to me if the subject has a Nazi flag, a Rising Sun Flag, or the Italian Flag, they're just historical elements to the piece that I'm building. Not different than the style of roof that I would have to chose for a villager's cottage in the suburbs of Krakow.
The same goes for dioramas with wounded or dead people in them.
I don't really build those only because they are emotionally draining to create.

Myself, I feel genuine terror, shame, and fear when I see a Nazi flag (not a swastika a swastika is just a rune). The flag itself strikes an almost primal fear into me. And that's a good thing. It means that I've learned the lesson of lest we forget.
The same thing happens when I see images of the struggles on the beaches of Normandy, or the men slogging through the mud in the Pacific, The heat in Vietnam, or the freezing winters of Korea.

Banning things like the display of a symbol like a swastika is akin to book burning, which is a blatant act of fear and mindless ignorance with a dash of distilled mass hysteria.

So when it comes to things that I won't build...
There aren't any subjects that I won't build.
There are some that I would find difficult to do because of a lack of skills, or the imagery is somewhat painful.
But I would try anyway.

Totally agree mate

[graham22]

IMHO - we should be able to model with the swastika or any other symbol

the real problem as i see it (rightly or wrongly) is that by banning a symbol you take it underground.
by openly achknowledging the symbol - teaching the history around it - what it stood for and the reasons that the world fought against it i believe reduces that symbol to a lower level
i'm not deminishing the horrors or crimes that the people who lead under this symbol, the mass hysteria that was generated at the time or the atrocities that occured. but i think it makes us stronger to resist the oppression of any single person or group try to enforse upon us in the future

at the end of the day it is written into history. it cannot and IMO must not be erased, hidden or supressed.
if what we fought and died for is forgotten then the millions of lives lost on all sides were in vain and we have learnt nothing - but by remembering all the facts then in time it will make the world a better place

but we are in a free world - and i respect opinions of others and achknowldge we can't all agree all the time, but we need to listen to each other, that way we can live together and continue to enjoy our freedoms

[Lego]

Trouble is history is written by the victorious. An example is the fact the russians rarely talk about the three days just after Berlin fell. Three days where Germans must keep their doors open so the troops can have what they want. They did have what they wanted, it was usually wearing a skirt. Some people say that 100,000 women where raped. Can't say how they worked that one out though.

[modeller]

The figure quoted would be as much anti Soviet propaganda as recorded fact...

That was a kinda the point I was making a few posts back about my Polish friend who was in the resistance circa 1945 and while his hatred of all things Nazi was (he sadly died two years ago) still strong after 65 years later he had no anamosity to modern day Germany but his hatred of the Soviets was greater and did not trust modern day Russia... we in the 'west' did not have that same sence of decades of occupation to stiffen our view on the Soviets.

As a result of WWII and the worst excesses of the Nazi 12 year rule it has understandably made all the symbols of that regime a very sensitive subject... as modellers we come across such symbols fairly regularly (more than non modellers) even if we ourselves do not model in that genre... and it is a rare modeller that would never model anything with a swastica purly on principle...

But there is absolutly no controversal conitations for those that model post WWII/Cold War Soviet subjects... Under the rule of Stalin how many died during the soviet occupation of the eastern bloc??? for many the 'crimes' are comparable but the public acceptance of the Hammer and Sickle flag against the Nazi flag is quite different.

And even today given recent events in the middle east... would a model of a Syrian subjet raise any eyebrows.... despite that regimes use of chemical weapons on civilians...

The Nazi emblem has become unique as a national symbol in the consciousness the the post 1945 world... even nearly 70 years after the regime was crushed.



I must say big respest to all the members how have contributed to this thread.

[HamilkarBarkas]

I see the evil spirits in people, not in symbols.

To be honest, nazi symbols do not make me shiver at all, but the people who stood and stand behind it.
The swastika on the rear of a German plane does not mean the pilot was a nazi, thats just the way it was. Such an aircraft bombing a city is not different from any other aicraft bombing another city.

[Colin]

What about ISM members... are any subject 'off limits' for you?

None I guess! as mentioned earlier in the thread I've already ordered an egg plane for the build in Easter ... heh, I know its not even Christmas yet and I'm ahead of even the supermarkets who will likely be pushing Easter products on Jan 1st just as they have been pushing Christmas products since what seems like mid summer

If a subject needs a swastika and its not provided in the kit I'll get one, in fact I have a sheet of 1/32 ones here somewhere ... I'm afraid I don't read any-more into it than that, of course I know what it represented but its an accuracy thing for me ... Germany's a great place BTW, lived there for three years in my teens and would go back in a heartbeat.

But one other odd ball kit I've been hankering to build lately is the Polar Lights Psycho: Norman Bates house and making a diorama with it lighted up with the mother moving past the window somehow, would make a good prop for my Horror video nights I've never really tried a diorama before and this would be a good excuse to try one.



[youtube]7PXfiuJqDZM[/youtube]

[Radzy]

As a "stereotypical" Pole I shouldn't respond in this post in other way but with tons of hatred or something... but... I won't - I'm far away from being a stereotyped
I'd say Coen, John(modeller) and Michael got the points right.
We build models not to glorify nazis nor to glorify the war. Wars, although they give us subjects to feed our hobby, are the worst things than can happen, not cataclysms like earthquakes, volcano eruptions - wars, because they somehow tell us how poorly we acted as global society. that we can't stand united for sake of humanity, but cannot fight out our frailties in the way to improve ourselves...

Michael & Coen are completely right - symbols, whether they're swastikas, US stars, soviet stars, Polish hussar marks... they don't fight. If you build the model - you don't glorify nazism, communism or any totalitarian regime untill you do it with ... sorry I can't find better word ... you do it with taste. Coen got the point here about wounded and dead... I remember one beautiflul handicrafted diorama of US marines storming some Japanese bunker on one of Pacific isles that was spoiled with one thing... this guy shown the figure of half burned body of Japanese soldier... it didn't matter how realistic the scene was... for me... this guy crossed the barrier of good taste.

I feel ashamed and somehow frighened not only about the waving nazi flags but those who wave them... John said very important thing - if we want to erase symbols of nazism from our European and American culture - why we allow symbols like hammer&sickle, CCCP or DDR marks on t-shirts or other stuff (for me even Che Guevara's portraits are very tasteless) as they are for me the symbols of the worst totalitarian regime ever! Communism - Since 1918 it fed on countless numbers of poor souls, whether they were victims of great famine in Ukraine, victims of postwar stalinist reign of terror (like those of murdered by NKWD, Cheka, Stasi, Polish Ministry of Public Security, Romanian Securitate) or many conflicts, wars etc. and it's only because Stalin's Soviet Union was the contributor to victory over nazi Germany (ignoring fact that between 1939 and 1941 they were allies to nazi Germany)...

For me I don't mind having German or Russian friends... and in fact I consider Michael or Markus as well as all of you - my friends even though I don't know you personally and I barely know you only from your YT or ISM posts...
It's not the place of birth that decides you are bad or good, we are not responsible for what happened then, neither should we be blamed for ideologies of these times!

So for me... swastika is symbol that was put on German planes, like white star on US vehicles, red star on Soviet ones or Polish white eagle or hussar wings used by Polish units...
If it was there, I will use it - because it was there, not because it represents the deadly machine that nazis used to kill allies (or opposite!) or something like that...

We should remember the lessons given by history... but we shouldn't overreact ... just use the common sense and a little bit of taste.. If you find putting swastika tasteless? don't put it. If you find it useful to depict / represent some model (but not to glorify ideology) put it... simple as it is!

Cheers,
Radek

[HWGuderian23]

As a "stereotypical" Pole I shouldn't respond in this post in other way but with tons of hatred or something... but... I won't - I'm far away from being a stereotyped
I'd say Coen, John(modeller) and Michael got the points right.
We build models not to glorify nazis nor to glorify the war. Wars, although they give us subjects to feed our hobby, are the worst things than can happen, not cataclysms like earthquakes, volcano eruptions - wars, because they somehow tell us how poorly we acted as global society. that we can't stand united for sake of humanity, but cannot fight out our frailties in the way to improve ourselves...

Michael & Coen are completely right - symbols, whether they're swastikas, US stars, soviet stars, Polish hussar marks... they don't fight. If you build the model - you don't glorify nazism, communism or any totalitarian regime unless you do it with ... sorry I can't find better word ... you do it with taste. Coen got the point here about wounded and dead... I remember one beautiflul handicrafted diorama of US marines storming some Japanese bunker on one of Pacific isles that was spoiled with one thing... this guy shown the figure of half burned body of Japanese soldier... it didn't matter how realistic the scene was... for me... this guy crossed the barrier of good taste.

I feel ashamed and somehow frighened not only about the waving nazi flags but those who wave them... John said very important thing - if we want to erase symbols of nazism from our European and American culture - why we allow symbols like hammer&sickle, CCCP or DDR marks on t-shirts or other stuff (for me even Che Guevara's portraits are very tasteless) as they are for me the symbols of the worst totalitarian regime ever! Communism - Since 1918 it fed on countless numbers of poor souls, whether they were victims of great famine in Ukraine, victims of postwar stalinist reign of terror (like those of murdered by NKWD, Cheka, Stasi, Polish Ministry of Public Security, Romanian Securitate) or many conflicts, wars etc. and it's only because Stalin's Soviet Union was the contributor to victory over nazi Germany (ignoring fact that between 1939 and 1941 they were allies to nazi Germany)...

For me I don't mind having German or Russian friends... and in fact I consider Michael or Markus as well as all of you - my friends even though I don't know you personally and I barely know you only from your YT or ISM posts...
It's not the place of birth that decides you are bad or good, we are not responsible for what happened then, neither should we be blamed for ideologies of these times!

So for me... swastika is symbol that was put on German planes, like white star on US vehicles, red star on Soviet ones or Polish white eagle or hussar wings used by Polish units...
If it was there, I will use it - because it was there, not because it represents the deadly machine that nazis used to kill allies (or opposite!) or something like that...

We should remember the lessons given by history... but we shouldn't overreact ... just use the common sense and a little bit of taste.. If you find putting swastika tasteless? don't put it. If you find it useful to depict / represent some model (but not to glorify ideology) put it... simple as it is!

Cheers,
Radek

Very wise words Radek! Totally agree with you mate and much appreciate it

[Lego]

I agree with Hamal, all evil comes from Mother in Laws

Modeller, I think you asked if there is any subject we would not do. The obvious one I guess. Paedo stuff. This must be on my mind after reading this
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/eu ... 86064.html

I must be wrong headed but I would have liked to see the model raz was talking about. I am actually thinking of doing a smashed panzer with corpses etc..hanging out the side. How is this any different from what we see on tv/games everyday? I am probably just desensitized.

[modeller]

I remember a few years back there was a diorama of Gilles Villeneuve fatal crash complete with dead driver... I must admit that was a close to the bone as I have ever seen.

[Colin]

Back when I first went on to the internet in very early 1990's there was very little Web based scale modelling stuff at all, the big thing back then was newsgroups or usenet as we called it ... little better than modern day text phone stuff really, anyway it was my first opportunity to see what scale model builders the world over did and it was an eye opener for sure ... does anyone here hark back to those days out of interest?

Anyway, the newsgroup scene back then was called rec.models.scale and it had its fair share of colourful characters, back then anonymity was almost assured, nowadays and probably quite rightly ... anyone can be traced if needed, but there was this guy who went under several names (his IP address and provider were always the same as was his writing style) depending on the group he posted to and his scale model user name was "Az Hosers" this guy used to boast how he would model a dog turd and wonder why his local model show organisers eventually banned him, he once also modelled an airliner crash scene with the diorama sprinkled with real jet fuel and get this ... rotten burnt meat inside the model for what he described as "smell O vision" or something, a complete loon obviously, but funny in a bizarre sort of way ... he pretended he was a real airliner captain in one flight simulation newsgroup and the fact several of us challenged his credentials never put him off and he'd go on to describe how flying an Airbus was "cool" but his love was with (in his dreams) flying Boeing, in another music group he dressed up with make-up as the drummer from the Rock band Kiss and posted his pics on a satellite - early web based image site back then that we could link to ... I love music and play the guitar, but it would have been fun to hear this guys drumming I don't think Spinal Tap would get a look in.

Ahh, the rich tapestry of life and all that

[Lego]

He actually sounds kind interesting but is obviously a cable guy character. As long as the person is not hurting anyone who cares.

Do you really want to go back watching a frikkin egg timer on your screen? Lol not that faf back for md.